NCAA Mens Kick Ball Rule Clarification Needed
 

MENS NCAA RULE

SHOT CLOCK RESET TO 15 ON DEFENSIVE KICKED BALL

Rule book reference; R2, art 6 (f) and R2, art 7 (b); pgs 60-61.
there is no reference to the following because shot clocks do not have 100's
sec showing.

CASE

Offense has ball and during a pass it is kicked by the defense.

Shot clock reads 15 seconds.

In shot clocks that don't have 100's of a second in fact the shot clock
could read anywhere from 15.00 to 14.01 till it changes to 14.

Since the rule implies that the offense should have a minimum of 15 secs I
beLieve that the shot clock operator should be asked to reset the clock to
15 and then we know they have the full 15 secs that is required by rule in a
"kicked ball situation".

I am trying to find if there has been any NCAA update on this situation.
Thank you.

The NCAA rulebook is very clear when to reset the shot clock. Don't turn it into a big bowl of gulash by reading too much into the rule and adding factors (100's of a second) that are not pertinent.

This years NCAA rule book.Page 60/61. 2-14.6f, 2-14.7b

mtbabo is exactly correct. NCAA 2-14-6f says that when a kicked ball occurs with "14 seconds or less", we reset to 15. NCAA 2-14-7b says that when a kicked ball occurs with "15 seconds or more", there's no reset.

So what happens if the kicked ball occurs with more than 14.0 seconds but less than 15.0 seconds remaining? Do we reset or not?

It would be better if the rule said if the shot clock "shows" 14 seconds or less, then reset it to 15. That's what it means, but that's not what it says.

Shot Clock ?? How Much Time Really
 

That was the main point in my question as far ask not knowing how much time was really on the shot clock. As we all know .9 or .1 can be a big deal when it comes to last second shots. A shot clock with 14.9 or a shot clock with 14.1 can make a big difference.

If the shot clock say 14.whatever, you reset it to 15. If it says 15 or any number higher than 15, you don't reset it.

NCAA Mens Kick Ball Rule
 

Since the shot clock does not give/read in a tenth or hundredth of a second, go with the Rule as it reads. P.S. hundredth is different from 100's...... hundredth is 1/100 = one part of one hundred whereas, 100's = more than 99 parts as a whole and could mean 200 or 300 as a whole etc..

I think we all agree that's the intent of the rule. But that's not what the rule says. That's what the original poster is pointing out.

WOW!

I look up the and the shot displays 14 I will have it reset to 15. I look up and it displays 15 that is what we are going with.

Another Way To Look At It
 

When the shot clock reads, "15", it could be "15.0 - 15.9". Once the clocks hits "14", it could be "14.0 - 14.9". Therefore when the clock is at "15" and there is a kicked ball, the clock is not reset to "15". The team could actually be losing "tenths" of a second, if the shot clock were to be reset when it was at "15".

Not true. Shot clocks work differently than (most) game clocks. The shot clock will remain at 30 or 35 for one full second, then go to 29 or 34. So, the time remaining is always equal to or less than the time displayed. As soon as the clock hits zero, the horm sounds.

The game clock (most game clocks) will immediately go to 19:59 when started; the time remaining is always equal to or greater than the time displayed; the clock will remain at 0:00 for one second before the horn sounds.

I have never seen a shot clock that shows tenths or hundredths of a second.

This discussion is why the rule was changed from last year to this year. In the 2006 NCAA rules, one was supposed to reset to 15 when there were 15 seconds or less on the shot clock when the kicked ball occurred. Most shot clocks read 30 when there's 29.1-30 seconds left, then change to 29 at 29 seconds left, and so on. (Why? You wouldn't want the clock to say 0 before time expired!) This caused people to wonder what to do when the shot clock said 15 with a kicked ball violation, since in most cases, there would be less than 15 seconds left. The NCAA does not want a reset in this case, so they changed the rule this year to specify a reset with 14 or less on the shot clock, and no reset with 15 or more.

I agree -- but the "correct" way to do this is to reset it to 15 if the clock shows 15 or less (not the current rule of resetting it when the clock shows 14 or less).

I also disagree with the OP that there's a "big difference" between 14.1 and 14.9. That's plenty of time to adjust to whatever happens as it ticks down, and nobody has a play that tkaes between 14 and 15 seconds to run ("If the clock is at 14.1, we'll run Iowa; if it's at 14.9, we'll run Texas")

The rule states 14 seconds and 15 seconds as the boundary for the kick rule. It does not state 14.0 seconds or 15.0 seconds. Another way of saying this is we do not need to be accurate to the 10s of seconds, we only need to be accurate to the second.

So for our purposes it does not matter where between 14.9999999999999999999999999999999.... and 14.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0001 the timing device is at. All we care is whether it says 14 (set it to 15) or 15 (do nothing).

Unless my education was extremely lacking, 14 = 14.0 and 15 = 15.0. So stating 14 is equivalent to stating 14.0. No?

Once again, I agree. But that's not what the rule says.

No.

Google "significant digits" (you should have learned this in HS science class btw...). But the short answer is 14.0 states we care about tenths (seconds, meters, whatever) because we are able to know the value of the tenths. 14 states we are not able to know the value of the tenths so we go out of our way to ignore them.

So the way the rules under discussion are worded we are not to consider 10ths at all.

So you're telling me that $14 is different from $14.00? If the pricetag says "$14" and you give the checkout girl $14.00, you expect to get change?

I did, but I readily admit that I'd forgotten all about significant digits. But from what I read on Google, and what I remember from HS science class, the significant digits to the right of the decimal point -- which are not followed by non-zero digits -- do not change the value of the number.

I understand your point, but I doubt the rulemakers were considering significant digits when they re-wrote the rule this year. I think what they meant was if the shot clock "displays" 14 seconds or less, reset it. But I disagree with you if you want to say that's what the rule actually says now.

2-14.6f. When an intentionally kicked ball occurs with 14 seconds or less remaining, set to 15 seconds

2-14.7Stop the timing device and continue time without a reset when play begins under the following circumstances:
b. When an intentionally kicked ball occurs with 15 seconds or more
remaining;

Men's Report...Last season, a rule change was implemented for an intentionally kicked ball that did not require the reset of the shot clock when it showed more than 15 seconds remaining. When 15 or fewer seconds remained, the shot clock was set to 15. To improve its application, the rule now states that when 14 or fewer seconds remain on the shot clock, it will be set to 15 seconds. Furthermore, when the intentional kick occurs with 15 or more seconds, there shall be no reset of the shot clock.

Nowhere in the NCAA rulebook is there mention of 10th's or 100ths of second in reference to the shot clock. If you see 14 reset it to 15, if says 15 or higher, don't reset it.

Please, do not purposely clog a drain just to show off your plumbing skills.

Don't be an ***. Our money system is accurate to 2 digits simply because that's the smallest coin the government mints. The "accuracy" of money is completely arbitrary. If the government wanted to mint coins that are worth tenths of cents (kinda small, maybe put your picture on it?) then it would be accurate to that value. Of course electronic trading can give change of very small values...but again it's irrelevant because money is not something we measure in a physical sense. As time is.

Getting back to the thread, shot clocks are accurate to units, ie any measurement smaller than that is not valid. That is a consequence of the fact that 10ths are not available to us and we cannot know where between the integer values the timing device is.

As for where the significant digits occur - if this concept was limited to decimals only it would be called significant decimals, not significant digits.

Do you think that every measurement is accurate to tenths of units or better?

It's what I do. :shrug: :)

Whatever the reason, arbitrary or not, you said that 14 does not equal 14.0 and I just gave you a concrete example to the contrary. Sorry if it's not convenient.

What does that even mean, "not valid"? They don't exist? Or we simply don't care about them? Because I agree that we don't care about them, as I've said. And I think that the rulemakers don't care about them, as I've said. But the shot clock is measuring them, whether they are displayed or not. For that reason, I think the rule should read "If the shot clock displays 14 seconds or less. . .". As I've said.

I don't have any idea whatsoever.

It's not inconvenient. It's improperly using the practices for measuring phyisical things (time and distance) to measure a non-physical thing (ie the value of money). You may as well say 14 seconds is equivalent to 14 dollars. Makes no sense. Wrong.

The shot clock is certainly not guaranteed to "measure" anything between 14 and 15. Surely the shot clock exists thru the time between 15 seconds and 14 seconds (as we do) but you have no standing to say the shot clock "measures" that time. And even if it did actually "measure" that time, how do we know what the measurement is? We don't, because 10ths of seconds are not available to us. IOW they are not valid for use in our measurement.

I agree.

I disagree. Exactly 14 is equivalent to exactly 14.0. 14 dollars is equivalent to 14.0 dollars. Exactly 14 seconds is equivalent to exactly 14.0 seconds. It is the only sensible thing in this thread.

This whole discussion would go away if the rule simply said "If the shot clock displays 14 seconds or less, reset it to 15".

You have your head so far up your...errr....let's say you have your head so far into the weeds that you're concerned with making cute debating style points instead of hearing my message.

I'll try 1 more time then I'll give up.

The shot clock does not display tenths of seconds and we have no way of knowing how it passes the time from 15 seconds to 14 seconds. And I mean that in a very real sense. For this very reason we have absolutely no standing to come to any conclusion on the measurement of time between 15 and 14. With me so far? Or do you want to stop to question what I mean by "weeds"?

This idea is wrapped up neatly in a measuring technique that uses the concept of significant digits. There are ways to define what the accuracy of a measurement is, one way is to write the number that includes however many decimal places you know to be realiably measured*. When you say 14 you are saying it could be 14.0, 14.1, 14.2....or maybe even 13.9. When you say 14.0 you mean 14.0 - not 14.1 or 13.9. IOW (and I know this is gonna be tough so maybe read it 2 or 3 times...) 14 is NOT equivalent to 14.0.

See? 14 could be 14.1

14.0 could NOT be 14.1.

Since you admit you haven't thought about this since HS and you still to this day have no idea how it works I can understand why you are confused. But (by convention and practice) 14 seconds is not the same as 14.0 seconds.

* Does not have to be decimals - when Micky D says they sold billions and billions, do you think they have the exact number sold down to a single burger?

I admit, I'm trying to stay light-hearted in the face of being called an ***. But I'm not being cute. I honestly don't care what the convention is. Exactly 14 seconds equals exactly 14.0 seconds. That's the bottom line. To deny that is to make mathematics non-sensical. To say that you don't care about extra decimal places is a far cry from saying that extra decimal places don't change the value of a given number. Let's say we time a runner in a sprint and our stopwatch measures to hundredths of a second. We time him at 9.85 seconds. I understand that we don't care about whatever extra thousandths he took to cross the line. But that doesn't mean that 9.85 actually equals the 9.851 that would've been measured on a slightly more accurate stopwatch.

Maybe so. But we can come to the conclusion that there are 14 seconds or more remaining.

Jeez, I don't think I'm saying that at all!! When I say "there's 14 on the clock", I'm saying that I see "14" displayed. I'm not making any comment on 14.1 or 14.2 or whatever.

No. But if they did have it down to a single burger -- say, 324,571,609,212 -- I bet that's the same as 324,571,609,212.0 burgers.

Hmmm...that's quite a bit me like saying that you shouldn't be insulted by being called an ***, I don't care what the convention is regarding the language. There's your problem. When we're discussing measurments there is no such thing as EXACTLY 14 seconds. As I noted, 14 seconds might be 14.1 second, or 13.9 seconds. 14.0 seconds, OTOH, cannot be 14.1 seconds. Untill you see this it's useless to continue gack.

Now listen closely...I'm gonna try and remain as calm as is humanly possible...

BUT WE F'ING DON'T HAVE A MORE ACCURATE F'ING STOPWATCH!!!!!!

OK, I feel better now.... Really? And how do you know there are not 13.9 seconds remaining? Certanly 13.9 is much closer to 14 than 14.5 is. Yes you are. Remember this gem?

And finally, and I do mean finally... You can bet as much as you like accurate to thousanths of cents but you would be wrong. Simply beacuse the zero in the decimal point of your second number means there's a possibility that tenths of a burger were sold but we don't know what that fraction is in your first number.

They MIGHT be the same. OTOH they might NOT be the same. Not enough information in the first number to conclude.

Well, you said you were done and that's just as well; because we're clearly talking at cross-purposes. There clearly is such a thing as exactly 14 seconds. There are very precise definitions of what a second is. You add the caveat, "when we're discussing measurements". And that must make a difference, but for the life of me I don't see what it is.

There is obviously time that passes between the point at which a clock shows 15 and the point at which the clock subsequently shows 14. This is undeniable, regardless of how many significant digits you want to include. The kicked ball rule doesn't tell us what to do during that time. This is also undeniable. The rule would be clearer if it read, "If the shot clock displays 14 seconds or less. . ." This is the one and only point that I really wanted to make in this whole thread.

So I'll be done now, too. (That's "too" with three significant letters. :) )

Definative measurements (14.0) require definitive measuring devices (not possible with shot clocks as we know them). If a Stop Watch was used as a timer then stopping the device at exactly 14.0 would IMHO be equal to 14 otherwise how could you possibly tell.

Kick Ball - Shot Clock
 

Additional information, "Last season, a rule change was implemented that did
not require the reset of the shot clock if it showed 15 or more seconds
remaining. If 15 or fewer seconds remained, the shot clock was set to 15.
To avoid confusion, the rule will now state that if 14 or fewer seconds
remain on the shot clock, it will be set to 15 seconds." This is found or
BR15 (NCAA Rules Book). - Donnie