Ticky Tack ... or not??
 

Boys 4th grade rec. league in O/T, pressing in the BC is allowed. A1 has the ball for a designated spot throw-in along the baseline in their back court. A2 is right on the edge of the court reaches across the vertical boundary and A1 hands him the ball. A Team B player was close but was not making an overt attempt to get between A1 and A2. I call a violation and give the ball to Team B for a designated spot throw-in.

During the post game the senior official that I was working with asked about the call. He didn't have a problem with it but he mentioned that some officials would consider that to be ticky tack.

Here's what I think:
Since BC press was allowed and their was opposing team players in the vicinity, it's not ticky tack.
If it occurred in the team's front court it's not ticky tack.
If it occurred in the BC when no pressing is allowed or if there are no Team B players in the vicinity, let it go, but give a warning and hit them with a violation if it happens again.
Whether A2 reaches OOB to receive the hand off or whether A1 reaches in-bounds to give A2 the ball doesn't make a difference.

Thoughts please.

4TH Grade?

Here's what I think:

Listen to your "Senior" official.

Good call. I guess at some age I would talk to the players, but in a HS game, I call it every time: pressure or no pressure.

Among 4th graders (9 years old) and there is pressure. A has to inbounds properly. Why give them an unfair advantage when B is playing within the rules?

Hadta be there to judge the tone, the skill level.
I don't know if I woulda, coulda or shoulda called the violation.
I think that call or no-call is a wash and that you did just fine.

More than that, you may have taught the kids, coaches and parents the actual rule.
That's a good thing. ;)

"ticky tack" violation? wtf? Usually, ticky tack is used to refer to foul calls.

Since you apparently missed it in the OP, the senior official didn't have a problem with the call, he said some officials might consider it ticky tack. Hence, I'm asking experienced (or presumably experienced) officials what they think.

does that mean there would be a "ticky tack" travel call, or a "ticky tack" lane violation? Just have to ask!!!

yes to a ticky tack lane violation -- you know the one where the ball is 30 feet away and offensive player has been in the key about 3 or 4 seconds and is making his way out and ball is still just being passes around 30-40 feet away and you hear 3seconds -- to me -- that is ticky tack -- or the 3second violation where you ask the guy to leave and he is making his way out and you call it

Sure...in a 4th grade game there definitely could be a ticky-tack travel or lane violation call...

example: little 4th grade Johnny receives the in-bounds pass under opponents basket - the closest defender is 65 feet away. Little Johnny takes an extra step as he starts his dribble...calling that could be considered ticky-tack.

I meant, free throw lane violation... my bad. but i get your point. a rocky's point.

How about someone with a toe in the lane up by the free throw line getting called for a 3-second violation? THAT would be ticky-tack.

It would only take once..That kid would never cross his big toe over that line again.

OK, here's a question: how many officials do you know who (in high school) will administer a T if the book isn't done at the 10 minute mark? Is that ticky tack or what? I've never given a T for that, but think that if I did, it would only take once for each team, then they'd all have em done and ready on time.

A "boys 4th grade rec. senior official" sounds oxymoronic. I would not be very concerned. At the same, time keep your mind open to perceiving how the other officials call the game. Pick up a little here and there and hopefully you won't be a senior official calling boys 4th grade games, (unless that is your ambition or calling).

From personal experience...not if you are working your way back from injuries suffered in something like a serious car accident. :eek: In that case...just getting on the floor is theraputic.

It doesn't matter if it's ticky tack or not. You made the call, it was the correct call, leave it at that, sleep well tonight. It would be a problem worth investigating if it was the wrong call. As you continue to referee, you will begin to see what calls you can let go and what calls you need to make. People, fans, coaches, and yes officials will question every call you make that they don't like, no matter how long you officiate, so my point is get use to it. Just make sure you get the right call and move on.

Now, I have a question for you. Would you make that same call again?

Oh, and last, I would not let anyone give me any grief over a correct call. I got one for you. I called a 10 second F/T shooter violation for taking too long to shoot, late in a tournament game. My partner didn't like the call, said it was ticky tack. I told him "thems the breaks!" On to the next game.

i have worked with guys that have -- in a varsity game by 10 minutes I EXPECT the books to be ready if for some reason they are not there better be a darn great reason. and i always double check with the visitors book if there are any discrepencies in the home book for the visitors because it could have been input error and i dont want to penalize before the game starts for that type of mistake.

my 10 second free throw violation is a LOOONG 10 seconds (maybe realistically 12-13) but thats just because i have a bit of a slower count -- and usually the first time this happens in a game -- which is like once every 3 years i will remind the kid to speed it up -- if he fails to he will get whistled.

this alludes to a different thread but after this game i wouldnt even have thought about it and if my partner brings it up i would only amuse him and just nod and say yes.

I would certainly hope that NO official ever would call a "T" if the book isn't done at the 10-minute mark. There's no rules backing to do so. The only requirement by rule is that the rosters and 5 starters must be <b>given</b> to the scorer by the 10-minute mark. They <b>DON'T</b> have to be entered into the scorebook by that time.

Methinks that you don't know the rule. Methinks you should read NFHS rule 10-1-1. Methinks that it might be a good idea to actually learn the rule before you think about calling a "T" for it.:)

Is the <b>fact</b> that there is <b>NO</b> rule requiring the books to be ready by the 10-minute mark a darn good reason?

its more a personal thing to get it ready because i dont want it coming down to the wire.

usually starters are scribbled on a seperate piece of paper that i go by that they use for announcements.

Why?:confused: That's the scorer's job. Let 'em do it. Once the teams hand in their rosters and designated starters, it's no longer a concern of the officials. If the scorer doesn't get the book ready by game time, all we can do is wait until it is ready anyway. There's no penalty....unless you want to find a new scorer.

i more and make sure that they at least have the same number of names or more than on the bench -- i believe in an ounce of prevention

What??? Becoming a good officials means you'll never work a kids game? I know some great officials that work ANY level of game, schedule permitting. They just love to be on the court.

There's no reason to expect that a person working a 4th grade game can't be a top notch official.

Agreed, I also know of "senior officials" who are at these games for other reasons than officiating. Maybe they happen to be running the league, maybe they happen to be scheduling officials, maybe they happen to be scouting officials at this level. Let's not jump to any conclusions based on our own limited experiences.

I probably should have explained. Us newbies are paired with senior officials (at least a few years of experience and usually they are also the area high school and JC officials).