Lost a sneaker
 

Boys varsity game last night. A1 drives to the basket, makes layup, sneaker comes off. As B1 is taking the ball out, official blows whistle to allow A1 to retrieve and replace his sneaker, eliminating potential advantage for B. Any rule to support stopping the game to allow A1 to replace his shoe?

No. Unless, of course, the smell posed a hazard to other participants. ;)

Is there any common sense and fair play reason why you WOULDN'T stop the game?

An official can stop the game for any situation he deems worthy under 8-2d.

Rich,
Maybe there is no shoe rule for the purpose of eliminating the intentionally lost shoe.

If that's the sole reason, I probably wouldn't stop the game.

As far as common sense - if the play is going in a direction where the shoeless player is out of the way and his/her team does not have the ball, why stop the play?

As far as fair play - is it fair to team B to stop what could be a advantageous possession because little Johnny can't keep his shoe on?

Rich, this is one area that I'm not so sure about. I have had situations where team B took the ball down the court and A1 is injured (not badly) in team A's frontcourt. I have stayed with the player until B's possession was over or the ball was dead. Additionally, would this be treated differently if a player's shoe was untied. Can you give me a rule or a caseplay besides something that says I can stop the game for whatever I want? I'm not saying this from a position where I know I'm right; it is more like I'm saying this from a position of an official who has been on the west coast, east coast and the south. All three places handle things like this differently.

If B2 then trips over the shoe, is it a foul on A1 then??:)

If the shoe fits, put it back on.

For the record, if the player and/or shoe are directly or indirectly involved in the play I would stop the clock and allow the player to put the shoe back on.

The ball is at B's disposal after a made layup by A. If we're talking transition or a fast break, no, I wouldn't stop play. But after a made basket, I'd allow A to call a timeout, so why not stop the clock and replace the shoe?

Good enough reasoning for me.

Time out, not charged to Team A, allows:

• Subs to enter for tired players;
• Team A to set up press;
• Out of breath players to get a blow;
• Fallen player to get up and get back.

...All for free.

So what?

Shoes don't come off often. I just don't think it's in the spirit of the game to expect A to play with 4 players on an entire possession that hasn't even started yet. And I think it might be dangerous for B to play without a shoe, which is what would happen if I let play continue.

If A1 had twisted an ankle, I'd stop the game there. 8-2d handles situations other than injury.

Subs can enter for either team and all out of breath players (on both teams) can get a breather, so those aren't really points that concern me too much.

That's why there's no rule, Rich.
You can have your way with it. :)

How does a shoe come off during play? It's hard as hell for me to remove my untied (low cut) sneaker. I have seen hi-top sneakers come flying of players feet. During dead ball situations I have asked players to lace up their sneakers and all they do is tuck the laces into the sneaker.
So, do I stop play for a player to lace up or replace a sneaker during a live ball NO! Unless the footware become an obsticle.
Missouri vs. Kansas. Late in the game, Kansas player drives to the basket. Players from both teams go down on the missed shot. Kansas player comes up with a sneaker remover from his foot. He picks it up and tosses it to the sideline and runs down the court to play defense. Play does not stop until a violation or foul is commited.

Oh, I know. And I know that I could get some yapping out of team B's coach, but I'd simply say "I'd do the same for you" and walk away.

I'm feeling fiesty this morning, probably cause I have the night off after two real 2-person runners the last two nights.

And it's my daughter's second birthday, too.

That's nice. An example of someone else handling it a different way. But that isn't exactly definitive, is it?

I looked at the terrible twos with glee,
When once she hit the menacing three.

Ouch! Where's the pun police when you need them?

I have always been told to treat the loss of the shoe like an injured player situaiton. Hold your whistle until play slows down, i.e., if B stops advancing or when A gets control again. I have seen players go down the floor with just one shoe and continue to play.

A very similar situation occurred in G JV game last night. A1 drives for a layup and lost her shoe. She makes the basket and ref blows the whistle to allow her to get her shoe back on. Team "A" had been aggressively pressing the whole game and I had overheard the "B" coach tell his team to get the ball in bounds as quick as possible. Therefore "A" was given an advantage in this situation because they were able to set up the press once again. To top it all off the girl who lost her shoe never even tightened it up , she just pulled it back on her foot and away they went. That is one time I would not stop play.

This is funny that you bring this up. This exact situation took place in the Mizzou-Kansas game on Monday night. Kansas' Sharron Collins (freshman from Chicago) went to the basket hard and made a basket. He took on two defenders and all 3 hit the floor and he lost his shoe. Mizzou got the ball and started going the other way immediately after the basket. Sharron picked up his shoe, tried to get the attention of the officials and they ignored him, so he threw the shoe towards his bench and started running up the court. I do not remember when the clock was stopped, but I do not think the crew stopped the game because of this shoe being lost. I had no problem with what the crew did or how they handled this situation. I would have likely done the same thing.

Now for me once the player's team gets the ball, I would then likely stop the clock and allow the player to put the shoe back on. If it takes away their fast break, then who cares at that point. As long as I feel the shoe came off accidentally and not because it was taken off to get some kind of advantage, this is what I would do.

Peace

I would not stop it here, either. But I didn't sense in the OP aggressive play (from either team) after the official noticed the shoe coming off.

Again proving that what gets posted on the Internet isn't black-and-white.

Like most of you, I'm smart enough to tie my shoes so they won't just fall off. Somebody mentioned seeing a player just push the laces down into the shoe instead of tying them, and I've seen that too. If a player isn't smart enough to realize that this isn't the smartest idea, why should he be bailed out by a ref stopping the game because he was burned by trying to look cool? The exception I can think of is if the shoe is in the middle of play, where somebody might step on it and roll their ankle, but that doesn't sound like the orignal post, or the college situation that was brought up.

That could work as long as the offensive coach doesn't yell, "How can you do that ?" ...As if that matters. ;)

I'm thinking if the missing-shoe team has the ball, then they can slow it down for the re-tie, while I apathetically wallow in the realm of "who cares". :)

In my area, we have been instructed to let play continue unless the shoe could cause injury. These are big boys and girls, they need to take responsibility.

I agree. And, I've kicked a shoe off the court, and I've seen an assistant coach run on the court and pick up a shoe and return to the bench (the shoe was at one end, play had moved to the other). No, I didn't T him for being off the bench.

:D

Peace

This again is another situation that could be handled differently and still be acceptable either way.
Based on the scenario in the OP, for anything below a JV or V game (because that's all I've done), I would most likely stop the game and allow them to put it back on.
For these lower level games, I agree with Rich. Common sense and fair play is what it's about.
For higher levels, it really all depends on the game at the time.

So that about ties this one up? Just think about if it was on the other foot.

I think the application of this should have nothing to do with the level. Lower levels need to know what is going to happen when they work the varsity level ball. This is not a situation in my opinion that warrants completely different applications because of the level you are working.

Peace

Sure it does. Tell me you would call a 4th grade girls game exactly the same as a varsity? Making some 10 year old slip on her socks and potentially get hurt doesn't do anything for her and what she should expect further up.

I'm not talking about all the rules, just in this sitch.

Not all of these kids are going to the NCAA. Common sense rules.

That's exactly what we instruct our officials to do. The idea is to have it handled uniformly by all officials also.

I play on.

We had a situation earlier this year in a girl's varsity game. Girl loses her shoe while playing defense and throws the shoe toward the bench. They gain possession and are running their offense. She gets the ball goes to the hoop and gets fouled. She proceeds to the ft line still w/o her shoe on. "Um, you can put your shoe on before we shoot these." :D

I will do the same at all levels as it relates to this issue. Now I do not normally work 4th grade girls games so I cannot tell you what those games are like as the norm for me.

Fourth graders know how to tie their shoes. As a matter of fact many shoes are not even held together based on a shoe laces. You may say it is common sense, but I would disagree. If a kid cannot tie their shoe laces then they probably do not need to be playing.

Peace

The shoe doesn't have to be untied to come off either. I agree I'm not going to baby some kid because he can't tie his laces or his mommy didn't pull the velcro tight.
But if it's a low level game and doesn't significantly disrupt the flow, (ie: in this case where it was after a made basket), I'm letting the kid get the shoe on.
Fast break or in the middle of a play... we're waiting for a dead ball.

One thing nobody has mentioned is the fact that this happens way too much. When I was a kid, my main goal was to play - in a game, outside, on the playground, etc. I didn't have time for a shoestring or my shoe coming off; I was focused on playing as much as possible.
I think it is so idiotic that being/looking cool with shoes untied, velcro straps (on shoes) unfastened, shirts out and the like is so important. I know we are all officials and look at this the same, but let me take a minute to scream.

IT DOESN'T HELP YOU ANY SO STOP DOING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I realize all of this and if you want to stop the game that is your right. I am not going to stop the game if I have anything to say about it unless other factors are at play as I and other stated. This is why we get paid the big bucks.

Peace

Where do you think the kids at the higher levels or coaches think that the game should be stopped for a shoe? We do it at the lower levels and it continues up until the varisty level. I understand with lower levels, but calling it like you would at the varsity level may not hurt. Additionally, most 4th grade games only one or two of the players handle the ball - so it would slow up anyway.

No Rich, there is no more common sense. I'll post it again:

OBITUARY: THE SAD PASSING OF COMMON SENSE

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm, life isn't always fair, and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouth wash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job they failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer Panadol, sun lotion or a sticky plaster to a student, but could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Common sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband; churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar can sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by three stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else is to Blame, and I'm A Victim. Not many attended - his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.


SOOOOOOOOOOOOO, stop using common sense. You could be arrested for robbing graves. :D

:rolleyes: Oh, brother.

That's an odd thought. You have a player in his socks, which, if they are anything like the socks I wear, are quite slick. This player is attempting to play basketball on a waxed wood floor. And you don't see that as a situation that can cause injury?

At any rate, in the OP there was no play to continue. The ball was dead. Stop the clock and get the problem fixed.

Nope, I see it as a situation where the player can stop and put their shoe back on if they feel like doing so. Nobody's stopping them from doing that.

Sure, but they're not going to do that. They are going to run back on defense, slip, crack their noggin, and watch their attorny sue you for more money than exists in all the heavens and the earth.

This is why so many people get sued. The player has every opportunity to stop and put the shoe back on. Why should an official get sued because they don't stop play to let them do that? Should that be part of our pregame instructions, "If your shoe comes off, do not continue to play. Stop and put the shoe back on."

Give me a break! :rolleyes: Maybe I need to be kinder and gentler or maybe I don't.

Then they should learn how to keep their shoe on all the time.

You make it sound like we are going to allow a shoe to be off for several minutes. All the team has to do once they get the ball back or stop a drive and I think most of us will stop the clock. Stop being so melodramatic about something that will likely never happen the way you say it will. For those that do not know, basketball was found out to have more injuries than even football and many other sports at the HS level. I will be that most of them did not occur with the shoes off. I had a kid blow out his knee (I heard a dislocation of the knee cap) and he had both shoes on.

Peace

It doesn't have to be off for several minutes to be a problem. It just has to be off for one hard juke. You've already referenced the KU-Mizzou game. What happened there? The player continued playing without the shoe. Even one possession shoeless could be dangerous.

Nothing we do can prevent us from the possibility of being sued. Whether the suit prevails is another issue. You said it yourself - the <B>player</B> is the one that continued playing without the shoe. The officials didn't <B>force</B> them to play. To be considered negligent an official would have knowingly and purposely set aside a rule that precipitated a dangerous event. In this case, there is no rule that specifically states that an official must stop play immediately upon seeing a player without a shoe. So if a player is injured, the player assumes most, if not all, of the responsibility of the injury, not the official.

Injuries happen all the time in sports. Would you consider stopping the game before a player slides under an airborne shooter, just to prevent the possibility of an injury? There's a good chance that player could be injured, AND you're gonna call a foul on them?!? Oh, the indignities! Sue the refs!!

Sounds silly, doesn't it? Same as stopping the game for the shoe, because of the slight possibility the player might hurt themselves. If you stay within the rules, you will not have a problem.

I'm not advocating a stop at any cost. I am saying that you should stop the game during a dead ball and correct this situation. It is foolishness to continue through a dead ball with a situation like this.

Using what rule basis?

The ball might be dead, but you're also stopping the clock. This might give one team an unintended advantage. Maybe one team gets to set up a press on an inbounds pass that they would not have done otherwise. Maybe one team gets to sub for a winded player that otherwise would've stayed in the game. If the clock is already stopped, (foul, violation, before a free throw, etc.), I have no problem with letting the player get their shoe back on. But by you stopping the clock, you are doing something that is not necessarily supported by rule. Granted, maybe 9 times out of 10 it will not be a problem, but it's that 1 other time that will get you in trouble.

Should, eh ?
Foolishness, eh ?

Actually the Sherron Collins of Kansas lost the shoe, picked up the shoe and threw the shoe off the court toward his bench (he was well behind the play) and went and sprinted up the court and played defense. The officials did not stop play to let him put his shoe one. Now since you know so much, what rule are you using to justify your position?

Peace

Do you stop to have someone tie an untied shoe? I consider that very similar.

What about the ankle strap or other protective device momentarily comes loose? Would these not cause an injury possibility?

Peace

I saw that Zoochy. The kid stopped and asked the ref to stop play. The announcer said, "They may stop for you in high school, but this is college. Get moving."

So you don't have a problem allowing the game to continue through a dead ball with a potentially dangerous situation on the floor? You would not stop the game at a dead ball if you noticed a large wet spot on the floor?

I am going to chime in...

I have no problem letting the kid play momentarily with a shoe off. There is such a thing as a time out. If the coach wants the person in the game and fix the shoe they can call time out...

If that does not work they can force a turnover, foul, do something to stop the clock and get a substitute in

What's the big deal here?

1) No. It's not potentially dangerous <i>per se</i>. If it was really dangerous, you can take it to the bank that the NFHS rulesmakers would have already addressed it very specifically. They haven't.

2) Whatintheheck has that got to do with this topic?:confused: You're really reaching on that one, Eastshire. A long, long way! Apples and oranges.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Eastshire
I'm not advocating a stop at any cost. I am saying that you should stop the game during a dead ball and correct this situation. It is foolishness to continue through a dead ball with a situation like this.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Oh, my !
I am not even going to attempt to understand how you arrived at those conclusions.
Likewise, I am not inclined to pontificate what the members of this forum should do or should not do, nor am I likely to suggest that any of their actions, mechanics or judgements are foolish.

We'll have to disagree then on whether it's dangerous. As someone who has fallen down stairs due to wearing socks, I will continue to maintain that moving at any rate of speed in socks can be dangerous.

It's not apples to oranges if both are dangerous. However, since you do not find running in socks to be dangerous, I will conceed that the comparison doesn't work for you.

An odd statement, here. What are we doing on a BB if not discussing how situation should be handled?

OK, I think we're moving towards some agreement here...does anybody have a problem with this:

If a player loses both his shoes while playing basketball in a stairwell then we should stop the game at the first opportunity.

Hands for yes...??

You should pontificate. ;)

I don't think anybody is debating that point. But surely the player has the option NOT to continue moving and simply put his/her shoe back on? Why should we disadvantage the other team in order to allow that player to remedy a problem of his own making?

Nuh-huh.

He'll go blind!:eek:

dan for the first time one of your posts made me laff -- here's a cookie

http://wiki.coolmon.org/files/cookie.jpg

Of his own making? That is not always the case. I may not remember it correctly but I thought in the KU-Mizzou game the KU player lost his shoe due to it being stepped on. Players can lose shoes through no fault of their own.

Ask your self this: why should we allow a disadvatage to a team not contemplated by the rules because a player was unfortunate enough to lose a shoe?

teach character?

what...the suspence is killing me

He lost his shoe going to the basket and came in contact with a defender as they all fell to the floor. I have no idea why he lost his shoe (they did not shoe a replay for why) I just know he lost his shoe.

Because there are no rules that say we should stop play for this. You keep talking about what you think, but you have shown absolutely no rule the back up your claim the game must be stopped. I am sure the NF considered this at some point but did not think it fit what they wanted. I am sure a shoe coming off is not anything new in the last year. I have seen this happen many times but there is no rule that supports stopping the clock. I guess if a defender gets faked out of their shoes (I have seen this happen) and the dribbler is going to the basket, we should stop the clock immediately because it is a safety issue.

Peace

Self, what do you think of that statement?

Self sez:<i>"If there truly was a disadvantage, rules would have already been enacted to end the disadvantage."</i>

i still cant get over Dan's comment -- actually very funny -- i think it deserves its own thread :o

i mean 5 pages of discussion and thats what it came down to -- lost shoes in a stairwell -- i am still @#$^$^#$ laughing

thanks Dan i forgive your past indiscretions

Maybe helmets should be required equipment.

Or, maybe it's not as much of a problem as you seem to think.

Ding, ding...we have a winnner!!