Partner's HUUUUGE Blunder
 

JV Tournament finals. Under 0:10 to play. Home team is fouled on a shot and goes to the line down by one. First free throw is made, but partner waves it off emphatically. Shooter's foot was on the line. Crowd goes bananas! This is partner's 2nd or 3rd goofy call in the half, but is the only call in the game that will be remembered. Next FT is missed, visiting team wins by three.

Postgame partner says "I hated making that call, and such a nice kid too".
The home coach sends a nasty email to our convenor blaming "the refs".

My question: What is the best course of action in this situation as it unfolds. Obviously standing at lead, mouth agape does not reverse partner's call (whoops). Is bearhugging partner and demanding he invent a reason to overrule himself the right move?

More generally... besides OOB and backcourt what calls are reversible if partner is new or "goofy"? Other overrules I have seen
basket interference -> T for hanging on rim
common foul -> intentional (excessive contact) foul

What was the huge blunder?

I guess my question is as the L giving the throws, how could you see if the FT shooter's foot was on the line or not?

Also, you got to let them learn. Reversing calls or giving additional information all the time isn't going to teach a new official anything. If anything, they'll get lazy and be thinking, well if I screw it up my partner will correct it. Not something you want to happen. The only one I would change is a line call or something like that, and as per usual, only if I'm 110% sure I'm right.

Why would you even think of reversing your partner's call? :confused: The FT shooter having a foot <b>on</b> the line IS a violation. Are you saying that your partner should have ignored the violation?

Btw, you can <b>never</b> overrule your partner. The rules don't allow it. Only the official making a call can change his call.

Either we are misreading your post or you left something out.

Shooters foot
 

Gents,

By rule, there is no error. The shooter started and ended his free throw with a foot on the line. From a game management perspective the call looked BAAAD.

From lead I administered the throw and checked the the feet of the rebounders. I did not check the shooters feet, and to be honest, I don't think I have ever checked the shooter's feet from lead.

At any point in a game, if I am trail on a free throw and see the shooter lineup with a foot on the line I will step in and PREVENT this violation. If the shooter alights and lands on the line, that's a different story.

As to the overrules... In my association we are often held to account for the crew's performance, not just our own. We are sometimes told to step-up, though specific overrules are never discussed.

What about 9-1-7?

Which rule?

1) Read NFHS rule 9-1-7. You're wrong. From a game management perspective, do you always pick and choose what violations that you think should be called?

2) Read NFHS rule 2-6.You can't overrule another official's call.

Question? Does your association have a rules interpreter?

I think you and Mick are mis-interpreting hooptown's intent on his phrasing. He's saying "by rule, the official did not make an error, but from a game management point he did."

In general, I agree with him. If it can be prevented, do so. Once it happens, however, it's too late. And, even if the crew is evaluated as a whole, there's no cause for overruling -- especially on a judgment issue.

Bob's Right
 

Bob jenkins has interpreted my words correctly. Rule 9-1-7 was violated, and my partner correctly enforced the violation. I believe the call can, and SHOULD have been prevented.

Jurassic thank you for pointing me at 2-6. In the spirit of that rule, calls are never overruled. Calls may be reversed (by the calling official) when additional information is provided by other crew members. We do have a rules interpreter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooptown ...Shooter's foot was on the line....

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooptown ...By rule, there is no error. The shooter started and ended his free throw with a foot on the line. From a game management perspective the call looked BAAAD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooptown I did not check the shooters feet, and to be honest, I don't think I have ever checked the shooter's feet from lead.

Yeah, you could color me confused. That's why I asked the two questions.

1) Naw, I disagree with that. Hooptown was saying exactly what he wrote imo- which was his partner called a violation for the FT shooter's foot being on the line. I'm not so sure that hooptwn knew the correct rule when he wrote that. Anyway, that's simply a violation, not a "goofy call". I just can't see dumping on a partner so badly just because they made that particular call.

2) I certainly don't have a problem with the T finding a reason to re-set the FT either, and maybe whisper a l'il common sense to the FT shooter while doing so. But, as you say, once he calls the violation, that's all she wrote.

Your partner didn't screw up, the shooter did. I've 'no-called' this before, and the catcalls are just as wild. Maybe he could have done something to prevent it, but he's new.
Did the shooter catch the ball with a toe on the line? Or did he catch it behind the line and then step on it?
Now, partner should have probably waved off the free throw as soon as the foot hit the line while the shooter had the ball. Then you wouldn't have had a made free throw to wave off.

I had something similar happen yesterday in a tournament 3rd Place game. On one end, we had THREE violations on ONE Free Throw attempt (as in, we had to re-attempt the shot three times because of violations/disconcertion on the opponent). Do we skip over them because they were not serious? NOPE. They were all called. (Kid missed ALL of the shots - 4 total.)

Same game, same half, opposite end of the floor. Kid gets fouled with 0.47 second on the clock (4th Quarter), they are down by ONE. Kid misses the first. Shoots the second, and the opponent nearest the shooter steps on the lane line. I hold my whistle. The shot misses and I immediately blow my whistle. VIOLATION! One shot. Should I have let this one go because he got his chance and it didn't create an advantage/disadvantage situation?? NOPE. It was a violation. I would say your partner did what he/she was supposed to do. Call the game. BTW, the kid missed the second FT too. Team lost by one. I felt bad for the kid. He and his entire team just crumbled to the floor when he missed. But I still wouldn't change the call.

........Obviously standing at lead, mouth agape does not reverse partner's call

You should never stand with your mouth open when reacting to a partners call. You should never show any emotion at all. Just go on with the game according to what was called unless it is something that know you can approach him on and then go approach him professionally and talk about it.

In my mind if one official reacts like this to his partners calls, no matter how much you disagree with him, you are just hanging him out to dry and dressing him down in front of everybody in the gym. Just get his call and go on and be straight faced about it. There's one official in my association I won't work with because I saw him do this in a game once to a partner of his. The coaches saw him react and jumped all over it. It created a mess.

Not only that but in this case the call was correct. He had a reason to call it. Prevent it if possible but call it if necessary.

If my partner calls and correctly applies a rule. I will not call him a huge mistake.

If I must base my calls according to the proposed "game managment" principle of never minding a shooters foot on the line with 10 seconds left, then I better not be doing it with 32 minutes left, then I better erase the rule, then I better quit....

Not only that mick but to go and reverse an otherwise correct call based on game management may not be good game management. I'd like to see the other coaches reaction to the change when you explain it to him as to why the call was reversed. You might end up with an episode for the Jerry Springer show on your hands

You claim it was the wrong call. What if he let that one go and the offending team wins by one? That is a violation you cannot over look. I can't see why it's bad game management . . . because it had an effect on the home team? Why did you bother checking the feet of the rebounders then? Would you have made the call if a teammate had entered the lane early? I think your critism of your partner is off-base. Was it a bad time for the kid to make that mistake? Absolutely - but not your partner's fault.

Silly Refs, They always cost us the game!

This is the definition of throwing your partner under the bus. Learn from it.

Your partner made a tough call in a tough situation and now he's hanging out to dry because of you. Tell your convener the team lost because their free throw shooter can't see the line.

This is a JV game right?
 

You can reverse any call if there is a clear misapplication of a rule or if a judgment might be helped by additional information. But if the kid put his foot on the line, then that is the right call. It might not be a popular call, but the right one all the way. Also there was no mess up. The only mess up would be if he did not make the call when a player clearly in on the line.

Peace

I almost forgot. This was the big mistake you must be talking about. ;)

Peace

I think what hooptown meant was that he didnt feel that his partner was right in making the call, because his partner was administering the free-throws, and it should be the trail official's call, not the leads. I have only called a lane-violation on the shooter once while i was the lead, but only because my partner did not call it, and the shooter had jumped and landed about a foot and a half inside the lane.

If you re-read the original post, hooptown was lead and administered the FT. His partner was trail and it's his responsibility to look for a violation on the FT shooter. Hooptown should never see that violation if he's just doing his own job.

Hooptown weighs in
 

Gents,

I admit I was rattled by the coach's email and used the forum to vent when I started the thread. This was my first time posting to the board, and I had not read it in sometime. On second reading the thread title is MELOdramatic.
I fully realize that the crew lives and dies together.

I rarely show emotion on the court. My mouth was closed and my expression was neutral when the call was made. Still, if coaches or fans in the gym did look my way they would probably see the call surprised me. Most probably concentrated on partner, or on the home coach.

Your input is much appreciated and I definitely learned from that game.

Even so, hoopy, there's nothing goofy about calling a ft shooter for stepping on the line before the ball hits the rim. It's illegal, and there's no reason not to call it. I'm not sure why you think it's goofy.

Two more things I want to add now. First, what was your assigner's response to the coach?
Second, what other calls did he make that you considered "goofy?"

Should your partner have ignored it if it was OOB call where the players foot was on the line prior to game tieing shot attempt?

Pretty black and white IMO.

I agree.

But I'm left wondering, how much of his foot was on the line? A toe? An entire foot? was he standing under the basket as he attempted the free throw?

you are not there to please anyone
 

I hate having partners who like to please everybody in the gym.
people often forget why they are there. Your job as ref is to call the game and if you are going to ignore rules just because the whole crowd in the gym including the janitor is going to hate you well then don't ref. Sometimes we have to make hard decisions that lead to people hating you but HEY YOUR A REF nobody will ever like you.

I had club ball tournament game once with young kids and in this tournament they did not allow for the kids to play zone or double team ( under 12 tournament) If they do so they get first warned then a technical. Both teams had a warning... with 6 seconds to go blue is up by one green has ball just underneath basket and guarded by a blue player.. second blue player comes and steals ball . TWEET double teaming technical foul 2 shots PLUS ball .. kid sinks both blue had no chance... blue coach lined up his players in tears right in front of me so i could see them crying because it was ALL MY FAULT. All I said to him was well now you know what you are going to be working on in practice coach.

I felt horrible but i left the gym knowing that I did my job and knowing that I did not screw over the green team by NOT making that call.