This never happen to me before--What would you do?
 

Let me qualify my comments by first saying my partners in this game were great. I had a situation happen to me that I never have experienced in any varsity contest. I am not coming here like many to ***** or complain about my partners. The game we were working the other night was a real barn burner. This was a conference game between two teams that lead the conference at the moment. The game was close the entire game and the home team never had a lead more than 10 points. Most of the night they were trading baskets and the game always was in question. Well late in the second half we have a play that we talked about seriously afterwards.

I was the C and my partner was the T. One of the home players started to shoot a 3 point shot which was in the middle of the lane area above the top of the key. As the shooter goes up for the shot, the defender reaches in and puts his hands on the ball. Now I had probably a much better look considering the hand the defender used was in my clear view and I have a very clean look at this defense of the shot. The shooter was up in the air without bringing the ball up over his head because of the defender. As the shooter was in the air, the ball came loose and the shooter came back down with the ball. My partner has a whistle immediately and he calls a travel. Now from my point of view this was obviously the wrong call and part of the reason he might have not seen this as well as me, because he would not have seen the arm of the defender as he was kind of looking through the back as the shooter kind of turned his on the shoot attempt. Of course the crowd violently reacted negatively to the call and I immediately ran to him to give my partner some information. My first thought was to go with an inadvertent whistle and give the ball back to the home team because the shooter had possession when my partner made the call. As I was talking to my partner I happened to look towards the table (I was table side on this play) and noticed that the home team had the arrow. Then I suggested that we just go with a jump ball because ultimately I feel this was an easy way out and the play fit a jump ball under NF rules because technically the shooter was prevented from releasing the ball. Well my two partners agreed with my suggestion and I turned around and gave the jump ball signal toward the table. Neither coach said a word considering they were complaining most of the night. The assignor happened to be present and talked to us after the game. He did not seem to have a problem with what we did or the procedure.

Now my question is would you do the same thing if you were in my situation. If you would not do the same thing as I did on this call, why would you not?

If anyone reads many of my posts I am not in the “Get it right at all costs” camp. I tend to believe that my partners should be allowed to make calls that I may or may not agree with. Also would you have gone with the inadvertent whistle instead of the jump ball if you decided to give help?

Peace

The ball was loose due to the block, so it seems like the right call to me. I'd be happy to go along with this if you had something I did not see.

Sounds like it worked out fine for you. Personally, I wouldn't go to my partner on a call like that unless they asked me in. An obvious tipped ball sure, but not on a travel call. But that is just me. What you did worked for you.

Was the defensive player still in contact with the ball too, or had he let go? I will have to look, but if the defensive player removes their hands from the ball and the offensive player returns to the floor while still holding the ball, then isn't this considered a traveling violation?

Actually what was the issue with giving the info and him going with the IW?

Why take the arrow away from the team because your partner thought he saw something that wasn't? Because what you described was a blocked shot and not a held ball under NFHS rules.

To me, if the coaches didn't take issue with the incorrect held ball changing the travel call, why would they take issue with the crew getting the play right, and your partner overruling himself?

Was the defensive player still in contact with the ball too, or had he let go? I will have to look, but if the defensive player removes their hands from the ball and the offensive player returns to the floor while still holding the ball, then isn't this considered a traveling violation?


I don't believe it matters:

Rule 4, Section 35, NCAA rulebook

A.R. 95. A1 jumps for a try for field goal. B1 jumps to defend against the try and (a) touches the ball before it leaves A1’s hand and A1 returns to the floor with the ball and the ball never loses contact with A1’s hand(s) or (b) the ball loses contact with A1’s hand(s), A1 retrieves the ball while in the air and returns to the floor in possession of the ball and begins to dribble or (c) after the ball touches the floor, A1 recovers the ball and begins to dribble. RULING: In (a), the official shall call a held ball. In (b) and (c), the play shall be legal. A1 has gained a new possession in both instances.

It seems that in this specific case, A1 has gained new posession. Even though his hands were not above his head, as the OP stated, he was going up for the shot.

In almost no cases would it be travelling, unless the defender did not touch the ball. Even if the shooter came down with the ball after 1) the defender had touched the ball in mid-air, 2) the ball never lost contact with the shooter's hand, and 3) regardless of whether or not the defender still had contact with the ball when the shooter came down - it would be a held ball.

As for the original post, there would have been no hurt in making the correct ruling, an inadvertant whistle, and going from POI (assuming the whistle came after the shooter recovered the ball) -- and awarding the shooter's team the ball without going AP. Especially when you were 100% that the defender made contact with the ball, and your partner agrees he might have missed it. Maybe not all coaches understand that a ref can't be 100% time all the time on the spot, and if they ride your partner for it, then WACK!

Continuous touch and return to floor = held ball.

Touch and ball comes loose = loss of player control, so nothing.

Touch and no loss of ball with return to floor = travel.

What the crowd reaction got to do with it? You're making it seem like because of this reaction is what prompted you to act. Not good officiating to challenge you partners call based on this.

Guaranteed, the opposing coach is not going to like that. Better get ready to throw a T his way.

I like this, excellent observation, you got lucky but this is the only way you can safely get out of this stitch.

Here's where you errored. The original caller or the primary referee has to make this signal, not you.

Overall, I'm split on this one. I like the fact that you went in and got the right call. However, I'm a little concerned about your involvement in this game and it's outcome. You are there to officiate the game, therefore, your partner made a call from his primary, you didn't agree with it and based on the crowd reaction, you went and changed it. Are you going to do this everytime your partner misses a call in their primary? Or are you going to only do this in the big games?

My problem here is referee's are not perfect, players are not perfect. We're going to get some calls right, we're going to get some calls wrong and the coaches know that. We got a call from the primary area of an official, travel, I the coach benefited from this call. You go and change it. As a coach, that reeks to me. That sends the message that you have a personal involment in the game that might be more than just officiating, even if you are right. Let the chips fall where they may. Now we come down on the other end and have a similar play/travel and it goes against me, hey, come in and change this one too! My concern would be in this area.

Discuss this in the postgame, you blew that call, be better for the next time this happens.

Jump ball! Anything else and I begin to smell a rat. There's no I-W if your partner gave a traveling signal after blowing his whistle.

Isn't this fun being a referee? :)

Jump ball. If you went inadvertent whistle, it makes it look like you are overruling your partner. Jump ball makes it look like you just let him know the defender got on top of the ball to stop a shot release.

:rolleyes:

Jeff, my first thought was to call the jump ball before the shooter let go, so I think that part was great.

Would I have stepped in, given information, and come to the same arrangement? I don't know, but I wish I would.

nice job rut
 

First let me start this by saying I wasn't there so I can't say what is right or wrong :) ... By rule I would say it should not have been a travel, but the Jump ball is hard to argue with. I am with Juulie, the best part of the situation is that you went to your partner to make sure he had all the information he needed....

The ball came loose. A1 lost possession of the ball. It CAN'T be a travel.

thanks Rich
 

missed a word this morning....need more coffee I guess LOL....it has been edited..

If the ball came loose, how is it a held ball? I have no problem with going to my partner with the information, but I would have gone with the inadvertant whistle and not the arrow.

maybe Right results with the wrong reason....

I think you may have to go with the alternating posssession arrow any way.

If it is determined it was a blocked shot then the ball was released on a try: there is no team control. no team control on an inadvertent whistle and go with arrow....

Now if it is knocked loose before it is a shot, I would go with the inadvertent whistle.... Then you can just give the ball back to the team...I think that is the easiest call

The whistle blew after A1 had recovered the ball and back on the ground. So Team A had control.

There doesn't have to be a continuous touch by the defender on the ball upon returning to the floor. As long as the touch by the defender prevents A1 from releasing the ball, it is a held ball.
True
Not true. This would be a held ball. If there was no touch by the defender, then you would have the travel.

If it's an IW and team control is lost, how is it handled?

I'm interpreting this as a shot attempt, blocked. IW --> no team control --> go to the arrow. Guess it depends on the timing of the decision/whistle.

First of all I would like to say I am surprised ball all the posts and the different takes on my posts.

I just wanted to address some different points that I have read.

Let me deal with the rule first. According to Rule 4-25-2 if a defender keeps the airborne player from shooting or passing the ball, this is a jump ball. There is also a play in the Simplified and Illustrated Rulebook that shows an example of this on the bottom of page 52. The only thing about my play the defender did not allow the ball to be put above the shooter's head. It was more like the shooter was trying to lift the ball but something kept the ball in place. Now this only took a second but as the shooter was coming down, the ball was loose and then the shooter some how came back to the floor with complete control of the ball. I completely admit that my first thought was IW all the way and as I was running to my partner and when the conversation took place, I realized a jump ball might be an option. Without knowing the status of the arrow, I may have never gone with a jump ball at all. This is why I thought to post this here because I clearly had mixed emotions about what was the right thing to do or not.

The conversation seemed like it took several minutes but probably only was 20 seconds if that. When this was discussed later in the locker room my partner had no problem with what we did and even thought our call was the only call to make based on the information I gave him. So both my partners were OK with the call because I was unsure if that was the thing I should have done. Now in the past I can think of many plays like this were I called a jump ball. I just was caught off guard by the situation because I did not blow my whistle initially and I was trying to make a call right that could not be called a travel with the obviousness of what took place.

Peace

Thank you for putting into words what I couldn't come up with at 2:00 am. :rolleyes:

To me, the main issue here is that Rut basically overturned a partner's call. Where do you draw the line? If he calls a foul that you think involved zero contact, are you going to go to him and say that you think he should change it to an inadvertant whistle?

Like I said earlier, it worked out OK. But I think it sets a dangerous precedent when we start going to a partner and talking them out of a call (with the one exception of an obvious tip that you know they didn't see because they were looking offball).

I'm all for getting it right, but I don't go tell my partner that I think he got a call wrong. JMO.

I guess the other thing that caught my eye was that you said the coaches were complaining all night. Why would you allow that?

If you saw what could/should have been called a jump ball, you should have called it. Depending on the timing of the play as it happened, you could have been VERY late calling this.
I don't agree with going to your partner with this information. I don't agree with using the arrow in the wrong way. Just as I typed that last sentence I'm realizing that it might not have been using it wrong - but the wrong call (traveling) was made. What if the coach would have went nuts and said, "Nobody called a jump ball, a travel was called?" I mean what would you have done if the coach would have really went off about what was done when you didn't call jump ball? How would your evaluator/assigner have explained that to the coach especially since he was present?

You may want to read 4.43.3 sit A.;)

The touch must be on long enough to prevent release, that isn't happening if it's on there for a split second.

I do not have a definitive answer for you. I just know that neither coach made an issue out of this other than when the call was initially made. Also both coaches knew all of us and I have personally had both coaches more than once last year and this year I even had the home coach during a tournament (I T'd him up as well). So it was not like these coaches did not know something about us and maybe that is why they were accepting of the call when it took place. I really do not have a definitive answer either way, just speculation.

This is also something I cannot answer. I do know he asked us about the conversation and we were candid about what we talked about. I even made sure that I let our assignor know (who was a Big Ten Official much earlier in his career and we all work college basketball for) I was the person that insisted on the Jump Ball option even though I did not make a signal. Our assignor did not make any negative comments about this in any way. He just wanted to know what we talked about. He did make some other comments about each of us, but it had nothing to do with this situation in any way.

Peace

I think it is something that worked out for you, but something you shouldn't do next time. It seems like there wasn't a rule you could hang your hat on; someone called and gave the signal for travelling, but it turned into a jump ball without (this is key for me) a whistle from another official.

I have to disagree with you here. I did not tell my partner this was our only option. I gave information that convinced him that something else had to be called outside of a travel. I was adamant with my information, but we also talked about a situation like this in the pre-game and he was just took my word for it and there was not a debate. I was even apologetic about the situation because I did not give a single for jump ball or blow my whistle. But in no way did I "over rule" anyone. He agreed that he did not likely see something and allowed my position to be heard. We also talked about this extensively before our assignor came in the room (which we did not know for sure he was present) and after he left the room. These were great guys and competent officials. They understood the situation much like I did.

Also this was an extremely loud gym. It is bigger than most gyms in the state of Illinois and it was not packed. But it was so loud and you kind of are in a pit, that hearing the whistle can be a challenge. I was probably a little late on making a call because the play was technically in his area, but opened up to me.

Peace

Your response is the very reason I asked this question. This is likely a once in a career type of play from my point of view. This was one of many close calls in this game and if you listen to some we might have been the reason the game went into overtime with calls we made. This call was not a game saver or affected the outcome. It was a situation during a critical point of the game and honestly I have no idea if I would have done the same thing if it was the first call of the game. I do not think I have ever been so conflicted about a situation I felt I got right. ;)

Peace

Also, think about it from your partners's perspective. You went out of your way to help him out of a situation where he blew his whistle and didn't see the whole play. If I was him, I would be happy about that.

I would have gone AP too... but, I wasnt there, so that may not have been the exact thing I would have done. :cool:

Rut,

Not sure about NFHS rules, but it's my understanding that if a shooter goes up, defender's hand(s) touch the ball, the ball comes loose, and the shooter recovers and returns to the floor - you do not have a prevented release (and then AP) situation, but actually nothing at all.

In this case, then, by rule, your partner indicating an inadvertent whistle would have been the only acceptable outcome.

Having said all that, I really like the way you guys handled it. I do, however, think that only a veteran crew with a lot of credibility could get away with it. Also not sure we want to get in the habit of correcting each others' calls all the time. Missed calls are bad and we need to minimize them....but they are a part of the imperfect world the game is played in.

I think you nailed it.
1. It was a jump.
2. Your partner could not see the play from his angle.
3. You didn't run in yelling, "I got it, I got it" and try to override him.
4. You all three huddled and came out right.
What more could you ask for?

That's OK, we can agree to disagree. I wasn't there. However, like I said earlier, where do you draw the line? There are many times in a season where a partner makes a call and you feel pretty sure that they might have missed it. I think it sets bad precedent when you go in, uninvited, in a situation like this. It worked out for you. I wouldn't have done it.

Don't we do the same thing on out of bounds calls? If my partner would have said he was not changing, conversation would be over and I would have walked away. It is that simple. I have even done this on out of bounds calls and over and back calls. I have called two over and back and had partners try to tell me I was wrong. I told them what I saw and went with my calls. I would have done the same thing if the calling officials felt he was all over the call.

Peace

All I'm asking Rut is where we draw the line? If you go discuss this traveling call with the official, is that now your limit (obvious out-of-bounds calls and traveling calls)? (And by the way, we pregame how to handle an obvious tip - we do not pregame how to handle a partner's "missed travel" call). Or do you discuss fouls with them that you think they missed? It just seems like you are opening Pandora's box when you start coming in, uninvited, on a partner's judgment call. That's all.

I personally probably would have done nothing, but that part is debatable. BUT, if we are to understand that which direction the arrow was pointing was even a small factor in your decision to go that route, I have a big problem with that.

I think I'm reading Tomegun correctly in saying that his main problem is that there was not a whistle for a jump ball so how the call be changed to that.

I have to agree. I don't have a problem with you coming in and giving your partner information in an area where your primaries overlap like in this case. That being said, your information (as I read it) was that B1 made contact with ball, dislodging it momentarily from A1's control. Therefore your information to the calling official (should he choose to use it) was that no violation ocurred. No held ball because the ball was dislodged and no travel because the ball was once again dislodged.

I think you have to go IW or stick with the original call...jmo

But its not a jump, its a play-on.


PS I think you did the right thing. This was one of those clear calls that needs to be changed and not a judgement call IMO.

......but not to an AP ;)

The correct answer is if your partner after hearing your info decides you are right then it is an IW and play on. If he thinks he had a better angle and wants to stick with his call then it is a travel and you go with the call. No AP, no jump ball. Using the AP penalizes the team who loses the arrrow.

I'm pretty sure I saw this game. Rock Island vs. United Township? I saw a rebroadcast of it on local cable and it was definitely not a travel. I think you did the right thing going to your partner and getting the call right. I would have went with the jump ball call as well.

IowaMike why jump ball when it was not a violation if it happened how the poster said? Why not IW?

You got it my friend.
 

You have the right game.

Now are you saying you would call a jump ball because it truly was a jump ball or because you feel that was the best thing to do considering the circumstances?

Peace

Ya know what Jeff? The way I read this I think I would have left it alone, let the T live the call. Top of the key isn't exactly your primary as C.

Bingo. We have a winner.

Nah, not a winner. I have no idea what the dynamics of the game were.

Coulda been he had a perferctly good reason to take control at that point in the game.

So your previous post was just a shot in the dark?

He said he trusted his partners and the game was going well. Then he goes and initiates a conversation with his partner about a judgment call in his partner's primary. Doesn't sound right.

?

My previous post was what it was.

If you got some axe to grind just keep me out of it.

No axe to grind, but it you don't believe your own post it's kinda pointless, IMO.

Pointless. A lot like this discussion.

Like I said, if you have an agenda that's fine. Just don't drag me into it.

OK?

Have a nice night.

That is true only to a point. The C and the T if they are doing their job are watching a lot of above the 3 point line depending on what is going on in that game. Considering both the C and the T also have the five second counts and you are supposed to keep those counts, you will be looking at the top of the key. We had a lot of guard play and guards going to the lane. This game there was a lot of the ball going back and forth and the ball up top. In some cases there were some screens being set, that is a good time to look near the top of the key. This is a common look for the C with a guard dominated offense.

Peace

It looked to me like it could have truly been a jump. If it didn't meet the criteria for a jump ball, why not go with point of interruption and give it back to the team that was in possession at the time of the whistle?

IMO, your last group of posts says something about you as a man (in a positive way). I feel the same way you do about this situation.
For many reasons, I also give Rut credit for even bringing it to the forum.

I'm coming late to this conversation. Basically Rut, if I read the OP correctly, you treated this alot like a simultaneous whistle. (ok without the whistle;) ) But if the call was in one of those grey areas of overlapping coverage, I see no reason to question why two sets of eyes may of had this play. If the defender's hand prevented the completion of the shot, I would also call it a jump. If my partner couldn't see the hand, I could see where he would call the travel. If the call was absolutely in his primary, I would give him my info and let him decide on the call. But coming together was a good move IMHO. Nice job.

To me, it's not the same as a tipped ball outside his primary or a double whistle. Personally, I would not have given my partner information unless he had asked for it.

On this play, where I know my partner is looking directly at the play and it's in his primary I'm not going to come to him. I've had whistles before where I realized I might have missed something and then I, as the calling official, will seek information.

And now, saying your partner did seek information from you, the correct call would have been an inadvertent whistle, b/c it wasn't a travel and it wasn't a held ball.

Forget AP
 

I'm late to this one, too, but see no way this could have been a jump ball. Would it have even been considered if the AP was going the other way? I agree with BadNewsRef, I would not likely have given information to my partner. If the benches are on my side of the floor and the coach asks my how that is a travel, then I go to my partner with my information. But IW or travel are the only options.

Believe me that was the first thought in my head. As I started running to my partner, I thought about what I just saw and thought of all the scenarios to not call a travel. As a matter of fact, an IW was what I first proposed. The jump ball was the last thing I thought, but I thought it applied to the play. I then suggested the jump ball after I realized the team in possession had the arrow. But that was an option before. I just did not suggest it until I looked at the table. Is that the right thought process? I really do not know I just know we could not go with a travel on this call. I did feel very strong about that.

Peace

Rut,

I'm not trying to badger you, but I'm really curious about where you draw the line on going to your partner when you feel like they missed a call? Traveling calls? Fouls?

If I went to a partner that I trusted in a situation like this, I think the first thing they would say is, "what the hell are you doing?" :)

I don't think it has anything to do with the *type* of call, but rather with the situation. When you see something that your partner missed (defenders hand on the ball, the ball coming loose), then you consider offering help. If your partner saw the whole thing but his / her judgment was different, then you let it go.

I posted this here with the full understanding that people would disagree or agree with what I did. I also posted this because I was conflicted about a situation that I have never been involved in.

Secondly I am sure there would be officials that would be upset if I or any official came to them. There are a lot of officials that are stubborn no matter what information you give them. I have been told even in playoff games to basically “go away” only to later have the calling official realize they should have taken the advice.

I am also not in this camp I need to save my partner from all calls or even most calls. I rarely give my partner's information other than when it is widely accepted. Even if I am not sure about an out of bounds call, I do not come in and say a word when there is any doubt. This situation there was no doubt. I also would never correct a call if there was mostly judgment involved. If my partner called a traveling because of the pivot foot moved or did not move, I would not ever come in and give any information about something like that. So for me there is a clear line. Also my partner in my opinion (and what he said afterwards) was clearly screened to the defender and his arm and did not see why the player came back to the floor with the ball. If he had a better look or I had my look, even if I think it was the wrong call because of what I thought I saw, I would have let it go. So for me all the elements fit entirely for me to even entertain giving information. I was 100% sure I saw the play better, my partner was completely screened and everyone with a similar look could tell the defender put his hands all over the ball and at the very least blocked the shot which was clearly seen on tape if you talk to IowaMike.

The following day I had a game and I was the new Lead and administering a throw-in. I still had the ball in my hand and was standing next to the thrower and one of the offensive team members on the floor throws an elbow to the mid-section of the defender and my partner who is the Center Official calls a foul. Now I knew if he was going to call a foul it had to be a technical because it was very clear that I was still holding the ball. So I ran to my partner and told him we have to give a T because the ball was still dead. He accepted the information and called a T for the contact.

In both situations I just gave information when I was 100% sure what took place. Now if I had to do it all over again, I would have blown my whistle for what I clearly saw and I would have never come here and asked about it, because it is not uncommon to have a double whistle and not have the same call but go with what happen first or what was right to call. The part I am most upset by is that I did not have a whistle. I know we sometimes like to say “always” and “never” but this situation for me shows why you have to be careful when using those terms. This was likely a once in a career situation for me. I would have rather not had this situation at all.

Peace

I think a lot of people are trying to pile on. Not only do I not agree, because Rut is admittedly conflicted, but I think it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. If everyone that disagrees with what Rut did do NOT follow the "get the call right" mantra then OK. But, I would bet some that have piled on will say "get the call right" as an excuse to watch the ball all over the court.

Isn't it obvious that Rut is even questioning if this crossed the line? I don't recall him ever saying this is what he did, he knows it was right and that is all there is to it. IMO, he posted because he wasn't 100% sure about the call.

I will be ready and waiting to pounce on some posters if/when they do something that is questionable. But then again, we know some wouldn't even post anything they did wrong in the first place. :D

The one thing nobody's picked up on is Rut's posting history -- Rut is clearly not someone who looks all over the court and runs around trying to overturn calls.

If I'm working with a regular partner whose history I know (and he's like Rut) and he come running in, well, then I'm going to listen.

Too many black-and-white answers in this thread. Officiating is much more gray in nature.

Which is exactly why I didn't post. Without being there and having some kind of feel for the game, situation, and/or my partners, I really don't know what I'd do.

Thanks Rut,
That answers my question.

You are welcome. ;)

Peace

I agree with this and JR's post.

I'm not trying to hijack the thread (although it seems to be winding down), but I had an IW last night, which was the first I can remember in 20 years, although I wouldn't swear I've never had one. Ball was originally on the cylinder and then a hand came sideways through the net and hit the ball. Problem was, the ball fell off the cylinder before this happened and the hand clearly did not go up through the basket. When the ball was hit, it was below the rim.

I was too quick on the whistle -- it was 2-person and we were in transition. I didn't hesitate -- I stepped in and told my partner we had an IW with no team control --> AP.

Then I told the benches and the table. Shooting team coach wanted BI and then said after my explanation, "well, why not a foul on the play?" Other team said they had possession of the ball -- they did get the rebound, but not until after the whistle. Both arguments were pretty half-hearted and we got the game started quickly.

Four player technicals last night. Double technical on a held ball -- we closed quickly as the play on a loose ball was aggressive, but the players involved started mouthing at each other. Partner got a technical on the one player, but I saw both yapping and called the double T. I figured this would send a message.

Home team stopped yapping, but the visiting team didn't. We had two more technicals on visiting players trying to drive through 2-3 players hoping to get bailed out. When they didn't get bailed out, they turned to the official, gestured, and shouted at the official -- and got technicals for their troubles. One was on one of the participants in the held ball double technical, so he'll get to sit a game.

Things are starting to go up a notch in intensity with a month left in the season.

I ejected a freshman coach last night if that makes you feel better. It was a double header and I gave him one T in the first game, which I started all by myself because my partner had gone to the wrong school. The coach started complaining even when I was by myself about illegal screens and "over the back" calls. Then when my partner shows up, he turns on the intensity and says more and I T him.

Then in the second game he does not learn his lesson and continues to yell across the court. As I give him the first T he still runs his mouth and I am warning him to let it go as I am reporting, I just say screw it after another comment and dumb his behind.

I have not ejected a basketball coach since my first year and that was about 10 seasons ago. Fun times were had by all. ;)

Peace

What can the coaches really say? You admitted that you screwed up. You didn't compound your screw-up by doing something that was wrong rules-wise and that would have ended up pissing one of the coaches off. You did exactly what should be done imo.

Btw, one of the key things to note from Rich's post is the last sentence-i.e. re-starting the game <b>quickly</b>. That's great advice for all of these types of situations. Make your explanation, and if they want to continue the discussion, tell 'em to see you after the game. Usually, they'll have forgotten about it by then anyway. Get the ball back into play immediately and git-r-done.

First, I think that you did the right thing in attempting to get the play right. Your partner needed some help after making a call on a play that he couldn't truly see (I believe that he should have not had a whistle in that case.) and you gave him a way out. However, I do have some aspects of how this was handled that I question.

What I underlined is probably the correct call by the rules. Why didn't you stick with that? As is often said, your first thought is usually right.

I don't like what I put in red. Would you have wanted to go with a held ball if the arrow favored the other team? Which team has the arrow shouldn't be a factor in your decision. You should have just stuck with trying to get the play right, not take an easy way out.

I would have let my partner who made the original call turn around and signal the held ball. It was his call to change.

I'm a bit confused now. I thought that you said in your first post that you did give the signal. Or do you mean that you didn't give that signal on the play, but only after the conversation with your partners?

I think it is debatable at this point if that would have been the right call. The reason I thought of an inadvertent whistle is mainly the fact the ball was loose at one point before the player came back to the floor. That still does not mean that there is not the possibility of a jump ball or that a jump ball was not the right call. I also have not seen the tape and cannot tell you how right or wrong the call is. I will say that I do have on tape a game earlier this year where I called a jump ball similar to the OP I described. The difference in this play and the play that I actually have on tape is the play is the fact the ball never came loose in the play I have actually seen.

First of all I have no idea what I would have done if the arrow was pointed the other way. I did not have that as an option. Also my decision was not based solely on the arrow. It was a factor, but not THE FACTOR. I am no more sure about this call as I would any call tough call I have not seen the tape on yet. Now if I am not sure, how can anyone else say it was the right thing to do either way without seeing the actual tape?

I do not completely disagree with this statement. I was not doing it for any particular reason other than we were talking for quite a long time. I was the closest to the table and I turned to the table after all 3 of us were talking. It was more of a reaction after we kept talking and repeated what we were going to do. In a perfect world I would not have signaled at all after the conversation. I did and we moved on. I was actually expecting the assignor to make a comment about this and he did not. As I stated earlier, he just wanted to know what the conversation was about.

This thread is very long and I am not sure what context you got that comment out of (sorry I do not feel like reading back at this time ;)) but I believe I was referring to not signaling on the initial call (when my partner blew his whistle. I was not referring to after the conversation.

Peace

Rut, thanks for sharing your experience of this play with us. I'm sure that all have taken something from it.

I wasn't there nor have I seen a tape, and thus I can't make a solid determination which calls were right or wrong. All that I can say is that it sounds as if whichever decision the crew finally went with (IW or held ball) following the conference was a better call than the original traveling violation due to what you clearly saw from your angle.

The only thing that I strongly disagree with is that you have stated that which way the arrow was pointing was a factor in what decision you made. I think that hurts the integrity of the call. For me this is similar to other factors that should remain outside the purview of any individual call that we attempt to get correct--such as who is winning, which team is the home team, which coach has a better career record, which team is higher ranked, etc. Just my opinion.

My point about who changed the call becomes relatively minor after a long discussion has taken place. By that time most people have probably forgotten who made the original call anyway. It is just a respect thing between partners as no one wants to have it look like another official is coming in and overruling them. Since you are certainly sensitive to this part of officiating, I'm sure that you handled it with class and that your partner was fine with what you did.

The ball came loose
 

My first thought is your partner made a call so, find your next three-man position go to that spot and keep calling in your area. *I also think that the ball came loose and the "control" is lost so I won't blow my whistle. Your partner saw the play differently:eek: . MOVE ON. I have watched many, many games where EVERYONE saw something differently ie. fans, coaches, players, janitors, siblings, ADs, commentators, parents, and yes co-officials. Let it go .......