get me out of this mess
 

.2 seconds left (yes less than a second); ball at half court with visitors; tie game; so no way this game is doing anything except go to overtime, right?? these are crappy small school varsity girls who cannot even throw the ball half of the court.

I hand the ball to the girl to bring the ball in. She kind of drops it and then picks it up and looks up to bring the ball in bounds; suddenly, girl gaurding the inbounds decides to strip her; the ball is more than a foot behind the out of bounds line;

I pause for a second as the ball rolls away and then I blow my whistle and just look in shock

you know the rest of the story; they found the only way they could lose that game in regulation; mind boggeling

anyone have a suggestion of how I could have avoided that situation, realistically, I suppose we might as well make the assumption that this will only happen in these types of games, where kids are not very talented and have low basketball i.q.; anything you guys do when bringing ball in that would prevent something that foolish?

on a related note, lately I have been seeing a lot of 50/50 balls coming on throwin, meaning balls that are being deflected almost right out of the hand of the guy throwing the ball in bounds and right on the end of the out of bounds line (such that it would be legal if it is over the line); really close call and too close to call a T; anyone have suggestions how I can prevent those from happening?

When dealing with a lower level of play, and suspecting some low basketball i.q, as you put it, I will take my hand and show the defender the invisible wall of the sideline by dropping my raised arm between the defender and thrower. If that isn't enough, I'll say, "Keep behind this." No problems. Usually making the wall is enough for them to get the hint.

I sometimes do the same thing. Unfortunately, the b-ball IQ being low to start with, many of the players still have no concept of what I'm talking about and I get the deer-in-the-headlights stare from them.

Boiseball, you should rejoice in the fact that a player rescued you from what would have obviously been such a painful overtime...take small victories when and where you can get them :rolleyes:

Don't put this on a high school kid.
 

Player IQ is not the question, I think.
Find me a good coach, like Coach P, who officiates, studies the rules and teaches the game to proven winners.
His players know because they are coached to know.

You might just say, "don't reach through" and hope that 1) they are listening and 2) know what you are talking about. But it isn't your job to educate them. Preventative officiating only requires simple instructions. If it gets to the point of you having to get out a chalk board, it then ceases to be your duty to prevent it (assuming you had a duty all along).

I make the motion, sometimes even bending at the waist to reach really low, and really high, and say, "Glass wall". If there are the blank stares, I say, "Understand?" I don't see this as instructing, I see it as self-defense.

Consider this preventative officiating, along with making sure the defender gives some space in a small gym and the thrower's back is to the wall or bleachers.

I can't say I've done this in years. It's a varsity game -- if they don't know not to reach across, I can't help them at this point in their basketball lives.

I don't do it if I think there's any chance they should know better. There are varsity players who probably shouldn't be at that level, but find themselves in over their heads for whatever reason. I don't see any point in sticking it to them for something they've never been told, especially when it's so easy to "preventive officiate".

Preventatively officiate?

Okay, it's official. We've found our new Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy. Congratulations, MP. PS, we'll probably need to know your real name, at least for the purposes of cussing you out when you get too annoying.

Hey, check out my post on the great game winning shot if you think THAT was anal! Oh, and it's Marty. Former teacher. Yes, I did teach English.

Way cool!! An English teacher!! I saw it. And the one in the thread about the Boise-ball partner. But this thread was the final straw. Now that you've been selected, and your scepter is firmly grasped, I'll just suggest that you don't necessarily correct every single error on this board. You'll just wear yourself out. Remember, "Cast not your pearls before .... " Well, remember that one, but I suppose it's probably not smart to say it here, eh? Let's see...

okay how about if I invoke in you Noblesse Oblige? "the moral obligation of those of high birth, powerful social position, etc., to act with honor, kindliness, generosity, etc." I'd put "the benefit of the doubt" into that list.

OK, if rudeness is the weak person's imitation of strength, then what the h-e-double toothpicks is sarcasm? ;)

I'd like to thank the academy, and all the little people I stepped on to get where I am today. . .

Oh, and btw, I figure correcting errors is the best way to get my posting numbers up!

Tell us the rest of the story. What did you call and how did you handle it? Reactions?

This is an easy T. Of course, you nearly always have to follow this T by telling the coach that they don't get a warning when they reach across and slap the ball. It's a T on the first (and any subsequent) offense.

I heard Steve Welmer talk at a camp once, and he told how any time a game is still in doubt late in the contest, he simply tells the defender, "do not reach through the endline/sideline. I do not want to have to call a technical foul." Seems to work for him.

As for what I do . . . every time I inbound the ball I make sure the person throwing the ball inbounds knows that the throw-in is a "spot" throw-in or that they may run the endline. (I protect myself, and hopefully prevent a violation on the team inbounding the ball.) As for the defender, if they are applying any pressure, I simply tell them, "Do Not reach through sideline/endline." It doesn't matter the level to me. I do it a little less in the higher levels, but still do it.

Any contact with the thrower or the ball is a T, correct?

Now if the thrower has the ball accross the line you can have a personal foul if contact is made or a jump ball if the defender ties it up, correct?

Any contact through the endline/sideline by a defender where the contact is made with the Ball is a Technical Foul.

Any contact through the endline/sideline by a defender where the contact is made with the Player is an Intentional Foul.

Yes, to the your second question, AND the defender can knock the ball away without an infraction being called as well.

Nope. Contact with the thrower is an intentional personal foul. Contact with the ball OOB is a technical foul.

What's wrong with preventive, Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy? I'm more annoyed by prevent-A-tive.

Oh, yeah. About the basketball part. Sounds like an easy T to me, even if you hadn't said anything before the throw in.

I've never understood the attitude that I see here sometimes about, "they should know the rules. I don't need to remind them." What's wrong with telling a defender "don't break the plane"? These are high school kids for gosh sakes. My own teenage kids have a hard time remembering what they are supposed to do in non-stressful situations let alone in a tie basketball game with a few sconds left. What does a quick reminder hurt?

To me, that type of attitude strikes me as "I can't be bothered" or laziness. At the very least (cue James Earl Jones) "I AM REF-MAN. HEAR ME ROAR."

The best refereed games we do are the ones where we aren't noticed. It goes without saying that if I have to make a call in that situation, I am going to be noticed. If I can prevent the violation (or even better, T) and let the kids settle it with their own lack of athleticism, that, by the aforementioned definition is a job well done.

IMO, you have no business advising the player not to reach thorugh the plane in the last second, unless you've been doing this the whole game.

So what are you saying? Preventative refereeing shouldn't be used? So instead of telling a kid not to reach through, before the play starts, I should wait for the violation and blow my whistle, for a warning (or worse a T if they've already been warned), thus getting involved in the outcome of the game, instead of letting the kids settle it? I may get flamed here, but I'll always try to use preventative refereeing when possible.

I stand by this statement from yesterday:

Well, for me, if I wanted to coach, I would have taken up coaching.

Preventative Refereeing was taught to us in referees school four years ago. My assignors like to see it. Its stressed at our association meetings. Again, I'm not sure why this is such a big deal.

Just something to think about - if the kid reaches through, thus prompting the violation, isn't the kid helping to decide the outcome? If the kid starts to reach through, and you tell them not to, and they stop, aren't <B>you</B> then being involved in the outcome, rather than the kids? Aren't you depriving the other team of the benefit of getting the ball back due to the player's violation? If the coach tells the kid to get the delay warning, and you tell them not to before handing the ball to the thrower, aren't <B>you</B> then injecting yourself into the game?

Preventative officiating is a good concept, but we have to be careful when it's used. Otherwise, we would be doing exactly what we're trying to prevent - putting ourselves into the situation instead of letting the kids decide the outcome. The player commits the violation; we just make the call.

Well, shucks....
Yes, preventative officiating can be useful, but it is not always easy to be fair.
I can stand on the endline and tell a player to get his hands off, to get outa the lane, to let go of the jersey instead of making a call. Then, I can go to the other end and not have to say a word because the other team is well- schooled and disciplined. In this instance, I have now disadvantaged the better team, the better coached team, because I am reminding the lesser team of different rules.

With few seconds left, I can remind a defender what "not" to do, but now I have probably put the offense at a disadvantage because:

1. The offense probably will not be defending with few seconds left and,
2. I have just suggested to the defense a way to avoid a penalty which would award the offense.

Well, shucks...I agree!

Should I remind them not to intentionally foul? Travel?

Because you disagree with someone makes them lazy? GMAFB.

Talk about fallacies. I prefer a quote from Major League umpire Bruce Froemming:

"One of the really wrong theories about officiating is that a good official is one you never notice. The umpire who made that statement was probably a real poor official who tried to get his paycheck and hide behind his partners and stay out of trouble all his life."

Preventively officiate?;)

Rich,

I'll tell that quote to the assignor for one of my leagues who is also a rules interpretor for the OHSAA....and then look for another league to replace those games on my schedule.

As for your first question, not the same thing...deadball v liveball.

Obviously, you and I have different philosophies. To imply that I am a poor official is laughable since you have never seen me work or talked to anyone who has. I get the impression on here that some people like to officiate as if they are some badazz cop or something. Not my style. Sorry.

I don't want to jump between you 2 guys and take sides but if you think your best games are when you aren't noticed then you're mistaken IMO.

If you're not willing to be noticed in a big way as an official then you are not going to advance.

Now this sounds like something OldSchool would say.....:p

To imply I am lazy because I refuse to point out an endline is equally laughable. Amazing you don't see that.

Ignats75, it sounds like some preventative coaching instead of officiating to me. What if:

1. A coach and/or player hears you instruct a defender on what not to do on this play. The coach could proceed to blow up and say something like, "It is your job to officiate, it isn't your job to coach, you helped that player!!!!!!" or something along those lines.
2. You say nothing, the player touches the ball out of bounds (in the inbounder's hands) and you call a T.

In situation #1 you have no rule to hang your hat on; in the second situation you have a rule to back you up. It doesn't matter who your assigner is, if he/she doesn't understand that you have a problem. Keep in mind, I don't think you should do or say something off of the court that will hurt your assignments, but you should attempt to have enough knowledge to know that although that assigner is in the position of power does not make everything they say the gospel.

She used it as an adverb. Preventive is an adjective.:cool: