Swinging Elbows: Violation or Foul?
 

I always thought that this was a personal foul against the player, but when looking at the mechanics in the manuals, the call appears to be a violation. Which is it?

contact=foul
no contact=violation

Excessive and dangerous swinging of the Elbows - without contact - is a violation.

Swinging with contact made is a Personal Foul.

Thanks for the clarification. If contact is made, is it intentional or flagrant? Does it just depend on the severity of the contact?

It could be I, F, common or PC, depending on the situation.

And TC also.....

Note there may not be contact.

Coach's teach to clear a rebound by clearing out. Elbows are involved. In my games they better stay down and tight.

if a defender turns normally with elbows out and a defender has his ol face where it shouldnt be -- ie right on the pivoting player -- and gets it in the chin with an elbow what do you got?

i got no call. there is a difference between swinging and pivoting and protecting the ball.

Elbows
 

Some coaches teach to chin and pivot as specified in rules reference below. You're gonna lose a game check when we bet on this one...


Rule 4 SECTION 13 EXCESSIVE SWINGING OF ARM(S)/ELBOW(S)
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent.
ART. 2 . . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.
ART. 3 . . . Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

If the defender was at his spot first and the player with the ball pivots into him, that sounds like a Player Control Foul to me.

You're trying to apply NCAA rules to a discussion of NFHS situations.

<u>S rule 4-24-8</u>
It is not legal to swing arms and elbows excessively. This occurs when:
a) Arms and elbows are swung while using the shoulders as a pivot, and the speed of the extended arms and elbose is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or pivot foot.
b) <b>the aggressiveness with which the arms and elbows are swung could cause injury to another player if contacted.</b>

You might serve a suspension if you try to argue a rule using a ruleset that doesn't apply. Would that cost you a game check?

Me too......

This is the first time for me to talk on this site: . Please educate me on the process as I do not know how this works. I hope someone sees this answer. Anyway, the Rules book calls this a Violation if the elbow swinging is "excessive". If the swinging involves contact, then we have a "foul". Please contact me at rbgiacoma@yahoo.com

why contact you via email -- this is a forum to discuss issues

THIS IS SIMPLE

NO CONTACT = VIOLATION (LIKE TRAVEL, OOB, 3 SECONDS, DOUBLE DRIBBLE ETC.)

IF CONTACT = COMMON FOUL, INTENTIONAL FOUL, FLAGRANT FOUL, TEAM CONTROL FOUL ETC.

THIS ALL COVERS THE TERM EXCESSIVE -- On a normal pivot with the offensive player chinning the ball and protecting it -- elbow to defnse contact will either be PC, Defensive foul or No call. Up to your judgement

Me three fwiw.....

The difference is that pivoting without swinging will not be a violation but it is still possible to be a foul. In the case you mention, why shouldn't the defenders face be there??? :rolleyes: I allow defenders to keep their heads on top of their torsos...and I expect the defenders to get right up to the opponent. They don't have to give them ANY room whatsoever. If the defender is there, they player with the ball should go the other way.

Changed In 2002-03
 

According to the 2002-03 NFHS Rule Book, page 4, Comments on the Rules Revisions: The penalty for excessive swinging of the elbows was changed back to a violation from a technical foul. The previous rule of a technical foul (changed in 1993-94) was very seldom called, as the penalty was very severe, without contact with an opponent. The committee hoped that by changing this infraction back to an enforceable and less severe penalty (a violation), that the call would be made more frequently and will acheived the desired result of reducing the potential of rough play.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by justacoach
Some coaches teach to chin and pivot as specified in rules reference below. You're gonna lose a game check when we bet on this one...


Rule 4 SECTION 13 EXCESSIVE SWINGING OF ARM(S)/ELBOW(S)
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent.
ART. 2 . . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.
ART. 3 . . . Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
You're trying to apply NCAA rules to a discussion of NFHS situations.

S rule 4-24-8
It is not legal to swing arms and elbows excessively. This occurs when:
a) Arms and elbows are swung while using the shoulders as a pivot, and the speed of the extended arms and elbose is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or pivot foot.
b) the aggressiveness with which the arms and elbows are swung could cause injury to another player if contacted.

You might serve a suspension if you try to argue a rule using a ruleset that doesn't apply. Would that cost you a game check?

+++++++++++++++++++

JR:
If you'll recall, my original post was a response to Refdaddy's fatuous comment as follows...
"
Coach's teach to clear a rebound by clearing out. Elbows are involved. In my games they better stay down and tight."

My original quote above is taken directly from the 2006-2007 NFHS Rules Book...

Look it up!!!!

I did. It ain't in there. Rule 4-13 refers to court areas. There's nothing about elbows anywhere in there. I cited and quoted the applicable NFHS rules re: elbows to you. May I suggest that you look it up. Might save you a game check.:)

My bad... Rule 9-13 is the applicable text (smiley implied)

NO CONTACT = VIOLATION (LIKE TRAVEL, OOB, 3 SECONDS, DOUBLE DRIBBLE ETC.)

What signal is used for the violation?

Signal # 26 on chart

i use the macarena

Yup, and 9-13 is in a section called "VIOLATIONS". Rule 4-24-8 still gives us direction, as do other sections in the rules also, which includes R4-23-1 which says <i>"Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets their first without illegally contacting an opponent".</i> That's the guiding principle. W&S, Tim Taylor, Camron Rust et al have already told you what officials look for and how they call it. They are correct. Again, if one of your players pivots into a defender and whacks him with an elbow, I wouldn't protest too much if the foul was called on him/her. You might lose your game check.

i use the macarena

The whole thing or just the hands on the hips with a swivel?:D

depends what part of the song i am at in my head -- it runs through my head on a constant loop