Two men down!

[Scatmaster]

Situation 1. Third year official here, have a question for the more experianced. Had a situation last night B-J.V. I am trail, foul count A-9, B-2 (not that that matters, just for information) A-1 brings ball over half court, attempts pass to a-2 to his left, b-2 steps in and knocks ball into back court. a-1 and b-1 both take off after loose ball. While chasing ball down both players fall to the floor (feet got tangled, no contact between players torso or arms) a-2 recovers ball and brings ball into front court and runs play.

Situation 2. A-1 dribbles over half court, calls play, Carries ball (I think he thought about a baseball pass to a man cutting back door then changed his mind) I call the violation, we go the other way.

At half time: Sit. 1. one of the varsity officials came into locker room and asked why i hadn't called a foul when the two men went down. I told him because neither man was in an advantageous position, and I didn't deem any of the contact to be anything other than incidental. He said I was wrong, "anytime that two men go down, your calling something".

Situation 2. Same varsity official said "that was a proper carry call but why would you call it? It's a game stopper, what advantage was gained by him carring the ball out top?"

I didn't respond to his critical views of my officiating,I thanked him for his input, but didn't necessarily agree with him. Whats your thoughts?

[Grail]

In situation 1, you were 100% correct. The rule book states:
Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

In situation 2, I'd have to be there to respond. Certainly you were correct in what you called. As for game management, that's open to interpretation. Would you have made the same call if the player had done the same thing at the 75' mark, just after an inbound from the far end line (assuming no pressure)?

[tomegun]

It is better to see those plays, but if I had to give an opinion I would say to keep on doing what you are doing.

1. If you think it was incidental contact and both players went down it would be better to make a mistake by not calling anything. Who would you call a foul on?
2. You make it sound like an obvious carry even though the player might not have pressure. The seemingly open player turned out to be guarded so the defense was doing something right.

Keep thanking the veteran officials and put what you think is important to use.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scatmaster

Situation 1. Third year official here, have a question for the more experianced. Had a situation last night B-J.V. I am trail, foul count A-9, B-2 (not that that matters, just for information) A-1 brings ball over half court, attempts pass to a-2 to his left, b-2 steps in and knocks ball into back court. a-1 and b-1 both take off after loose ball. While chasing ball down both players fall to the floor (feet got tangled, no contact between players torso or arms) a-2 recovers ball and brings ball into front court and runs play.

At half time: Sit. 1. one of the varsity officials came into locker room and asked why i hadn't called a foul when the two men went down. I told him because neither man was in an advantageous position, and I didn't deem any of the contact to be anything other than incidental. He said I was wrong, "anytime that two men go down, your calling something".

This is a judgment call. No one here saw what happen. He might have felt it was a foul, but I would not be surprised if other veterans disagreed with his position. If all players did was run into each other and fall, then I would likely call nothing. Players will run into each other and you do not have to call a foul.

Originally Posted by Scatmaster

Situation 2. A-1 dribbles over half court, calls play, Carries ball (I think he thought about a baseball pass to a man cutting back door then changed his mind) I call the violation, we go the other way.

At Halftime: Situation 2. Same varsity official said "that was a proper carry call but why would you call it? It's a game stopper, what advantage was gained by him carring the ball out top?"

Once again this is a judgment call. Was the action very obvious (it sounds like it if he sees this from the stands)? I have no problem with the call based on what you described (which you did very well BTW). It might be a game stopper, but it was the right call because it sounded very obvious. It does not sound like you nit-picked this call in any way. Good job as far as I am concerned (by the way you described it).

Originally Posted by Scatmaster

I didn't respond to his critical views of my officiating,I thanked him for his input, but didn't necessarily agree with him. Whats your thoughts?

You did the right thing. You will hear a lot of advice as your career from many veterans. You have to know when to listen and when to throw away the advice. Not all advice is good or works for you. This happens a lot at camps where one clinician thinks you did the right thing and the next clinician thinks you set back officiating for 10 years. Just take in account who is giving the advice and why they are giving the advice. Sounds to me you were on top of the plays, but that does not mean everyone will agree.

Peace

[Scatmaster]

Originally Posted by Grail

In situation 1, you were 100% correct. The rule book states:
Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

In situation 2, I'd have to be there to respond. Certainly you were correct in what you called. As for game management, that's open to interpretation. Would you have made the same call if the player had done the same thing at the 75' mark, just after an inbound from the far end line (assuming no pressure)?

The previous time down the court my partner had called a carry on the ball handler who was trying to beat his man off the dribble, so, I thought it would be an appropiate time to call it as we had the same violation only moments before.

[Jimgolf]

Call the obvious. To do otherwise is to make a mockery of the rules, and makes it look like you don't know the rules. It sounds like the carry was obvious, so call it.

BTW, what happened on the other end shouldn't be a consideration.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

BTW, what happened on the other end shouldn't be a consideration.

Disagree. JMHO

[Junker]

I agree with you in the first scenario. If there isn't a foul, don't make one up. It just sounds like a goofy play. As far as the second, I really look at advantage/disadvantage when it comes to the carry. It has to be a TERRIBLE looking carry for me to make that call on a player not trying to go to the basket or avoid a press. The carry can certainly be a game interrupter.

[iref4him]

Originally Posted by Scatmaster

"anytime that two men go down, your calling something".

I have heard that from other officials as well as assignors. My response to them is that I made a call. I determined that both players were hustling and neither gained advantage or put the other at a disadvantage. My call was allowing play to continue.

Sounds like you did the right thing.

Philosophically, If I do not blow my whistle does not mean I did not make a call. Some calls have whistles, others I allow play to continue. Judgement, interpretation of the play, and rules applications happen every seconde of every game. Sometimes we blow the whistle, other times we don't.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Scatmaster

At half time: Sit. 1. one of the varsity officials came into locker room and asked why i hadn't called a foul when the two men went down. I told him because neither man was in an advantageous position, and I didn't deem any of the contact to be anything other than incidental. He said I was wrong, "anytime that two men go down, you're calling something".

I've seen more than two players go down and officials calling nothing.

That "rule" holds primarily in block-charge situations: when both players fall down, a foul has occurred (in most cases): someone is responsible for the contact an there is clearly a disadvantage for the other one.

Ciao

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Scatmaster

Situation 1. Third year official here, have a question for the more experianced. Had a situation last night B-J.V. I am trail, foul count A-9, B-2 (not that that matters, just for information) A-1 brings ball over half court, attempts pass to a-2 to his left, b-2 steps in and knocks ball into back court. a-1 and b-1 both take off after loose ball. While chasing ball down both players fall to the floor (feet got tangled, no contact between players torso or arms) a-2 recovers ball and brings ball into front court and runs play.

Without seeing the play, agree with Grail. Let it go; good no-call.

Originally Posted by Scatmaster

Situation 2. A-1 dribbles over half court, calls play, Carries ball (I think he thought about a baseball pass to a man cutting back door then changed his mind) I call the violation, we go the other way.

These are times that I might look off-ball for a split second. I then make a point to quietly remind him not to "palm the basketball while dribbling".

Originally Posted by Some V Official

At half time: Sit. 1. one of the varsity officials came into locker room and asked why i hadn't called a foul when the two men went down. I told him because neither man was in an advantageous position, and I didn't deem any of the contact to be anything other than incidental. He said I was wrong, "anytime that two men go down, your calling something".

Disagree, as per the rule book's stance.

Originally Posted by Some V Official

Situation 2. Same varsity official said "that was a proper carry call but why would you call it? It's a game stopper, what advantage was gained by him carring the ball out top?"

Agree. I try to avoid calling these where possible; talk the player out of doing it again. I've even told a coach that A1 is doing this act. They are ~ 100% thankful. If s/he persists in this action, I'd call it. Call the obvious. Prevent where possible.

Originally Posted by Scatmaster

I didn't respond to his critical views of my officiating, I thanked him for his input, but didn't necessarily agree with him. Whats your thoughts?

You handled your conversation with him well, since you're new compared to him. Be a sponge, listen to his advice, and see how it fits into your game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

That "rule" holds primarily in block-charge situations: when both players fall down, a foul has occurred (in most cases): someone is responsible for the contact an there is clearly a disadvantage for the other one.

Bingo! We have a winner. If one player has the ball, there should be a call.

You are wise beyond your years.

You must be an Inter-Milan fan.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by iref4him

I have heard that from other officials as well as assignors. My response to them is that I made a call. I determined that both players were hustling and neither gained advantage or put the other at a disadvantage. My call was allowing play to continue.

Fortunately, the assigner in these parts says if someone goes to the floor, know how he got there.

Edit:Fixed Quote coding

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

BTW, what happened on the other end shouldn't be a consideration.

I disagree because not it is about consistency. If someone called a carry during one part of the game, you better call other carries that are obvious to everyone during other parts of the game. Or it is going to look like you are not very consistent or you are picking on one team.

Peace

[Junker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I disagree because not it is about consistency. If someone called a carry during one part of the game, you better call other carries that are obvious to everyone during other parts of the game. Or it is going to look like you are not very consistent or you are picking on one team.

Peace

Good post. A speaker at a camp I go to yearly harps on calling similar plays in similar ways. You do need to be aware of things that have been called up to that point of the game.