what concerns would you bring up to your assignor
 

about a partner you worked with.

this past weekend I worked a youth tourney.

last 2 games of a 5 game set on a college court (i was exhausted) were the 12U and 14U boys championship.

first game I have one team with Head coach and both assistants standing -- I tell the HC he can be the only one up -- an assistant asked me "what if I am coaching" -- i replied say what you have to then sit back down.

couple seconds later I tell my partner what I told them and he says "I dont care." Well they ask him about a minute later and he tells them "I dont care if you stand as long as you coach."

I didnt know he said this yet -- the assistants are standing again -- I tell them sit or it will cost them -- "but your partner said its ok" -- I got furious -- I told them I dont care what my partner said I will deal with him and straighten it out but you guys had better be planted on the bench like I asked you before. The assistant went to ask something and all I said "This is not a discussion and walked away."

Half time I tell my parnter WHAT the deal is and WHAT it will be (period). Assisstant comes up to us and asks us if we are on the same page and I told him what I told him last is what stands and that is what we agreed to -- but my partner mentions "I dont care if you stand and coach." i replied to the assistant you will sit or I WILL ring you up and then I told my partner he better do the same (period). He wasnt happy with how that came out but tough sh!t I was now in get done, get out mode.

Game ends and he is going to the coaches all buddy buddy, and probably agreeing to all the negative stuff they were saying about my hard azz. Thats just game 1.

Game 2 everything was fine until i realized he's a ball watcher -- he even looks up to the heavens on a shot -- O SH!T batman. he had several train wrecks in front of him that I had to clean up and a couple times I let him stew in it as well. towards the end of a close game A1 drives baseline and barrels over B1 -- we both have a whistle and I look to him and hes already going the other way with a charge -- I had the same thing no big deal. By now I am exhausted and team B gets the inbounds in and runs up my endline in a fastbreak because team A was napping I guess. This is the very next possession after the charge -- I am about 2 or 3 feet in the backcourt -- the offensive player drives from my side of the court and A2 gets leveled by B2. If I was in position I would have called this ASAP -- but I was so far away and my partner was about 6 feet away across the lane and HE JUST called the same exact thing. No whistle -- I had to go ballistic waving off the basket and calling a charge. SAME EXACT PLAY -- MAYBE EVEN THE SAME PLAYERS INVOLVED. I get this look from him like how could I reach for that.

Now fans and coaches are unhappy -- fans are impling that I am on the other teams books. Are these worth bringing up with the assignor or what?

I am just going to give you my opinion and the answer would be no. I would not on my own go to my assignor unless I was asked about the game or incidents. I feel strongly that you should not make a habit to complain about fellow officials unless you know that assignor very well or that he or she is very receptive to that kind of complaining. If anything I would just let it ride and learn from that experience. You do not have to agree on every philosophy, but you had the rules on your side. If you wanted to T the coach, the coaches know the rules and what they can do. If they choose not to follow the rules, then they will suffer the consequences.

Peace

here's what I might say when I called the assignor:

"Mr. Assignor, I wanted to thank you for the games this past weekend over at ______. The title games were close and the kids played hard. Do you have an extra minute? I wanted to ask you about a situation that game up in one of the games; it has to do with bench decorum/game management......(then I would proceed to explain what happened in game 1). How do you think I should handle that if it happens again?"

I wouldn't touch the subject of questioning a partner's judgement to my assignor. If asked, I may only say "he had a couple of judgement calls that were tough and I'm not sure they were as consistent as I would have liked"....

If you really feel strongly about not working w/ that partner again, simply tell your assignor.

Tell me of an assignor anywhere that wouldnt ask "Why not?" when told that you didnt want to work w/ someone you just did a game with...

The fouls you mentioned in the sich?- no reason to bring those up. But the pre game or in this case pre 2nd half converse w/partner should have put you both on the same page. I WOULD tell the assignor that he "threw you under the bus" and why. As you know, your only friend out there is your pard, but I guess not that night...

I agree with most of this but in this one case, specially the issue with the assistant coach standing, and openly disagreeing with partner. Hell yea, you got to report that. What you are doing by reporting this is teaching this moron the rules, and it's insulting to go against your partner in front of the coaches. However, remember Deecee, this is AAU type program and possibly not a lot is going to be done. But I would still mention it and next time, do not engage in this type of discussion with partner in front of coaches. It makes both of you look bad, IMO. I would back off and just try to get thru the games.

I'll never forget when I T the AC for standing and then told the HC he has to remain seated. The ironic thing is I warned them. But what made me give them the T was that the AC was complaining and they had a 10 point lead. Now that's 2 things that's wrong. Now guess what. I know that call got back to my assigner because I did not get any games with that school this year, and I had always gotten a game before. I am not in any way disappointed about that because I don't want to work them anyway, anymore, ever. They are jerks.

Based on what you have said here many times, someone should report you many times over. ;) (I am sorry I could not resist)

The reason you do not report this or might want to think twice, if you report them about something, you think you might not get reported as well. Now you have done a tit for tat thing that will be harder for the assignor without independent evidence to know who is telling the truth or whose side of the story rings true. This is really the case if you start getting into judgment calls. The assignor gave this guy games for a reason. He might have hooked up Deecee with this guy to see if he could step up and be the leader. You never know why people are put together. Remember we say silence cannot be quoted. That applies to all aspects of officiating.

I would say this, if you are really unsure what do to, ask a veteran that has been around the block several times. You might find out that the word is already out and telling the assignor is not going to make much of a difference.

Peace

OK, now don't go off on me. I know I'm inexperienced and shouldn't be questioning someone else, but I have a question about this play (just for my own understanding).

Team B had a fast break because Team A is napping. Doesn't someone from Team A have to get back in time to get into LGP in order to draw the charge? I know I haven't done that many games, but I'm trying to visualize this play, and from the sounds of the OP, I'm picturing players running full speed down the court towards the basket. Unless A1 can get into position with 2 feet on the floor facing the dribbler, isn't the responsibility for avoiding contact on the defender?

Just having a little fun.
 

My question to you is where did he say he did not get back? I think you are over thinking this play. For all you know there could have been a defender sitting near the lane the entire time. Rookie. :D

Peace

Again, I don't disagree with you. But understand, I did not say complain about the judgement call. I am concerned about the assistant standing piece, and the official openly disagreeing with partner in front of coaches, creating a me against you situation for deecee. That is just plain wrong, imo. I think we have to try to teach a person who may not want to listen to a person less in seniority but will listen to the person who assigned them to the game. If nothing else, it's a positive situation for deecee to, I'm going to say not complain but raise a concern about this officials conduct, so that this guy had better not screw around with her again if they should work together again.

However, I will say this. I would never work with this person ever again. Deecee, I was recently offered to wrk a championship game, and I turned it down because I did not want to work with the partner for the game. Always ask, who is my partner b4 you accept the game. I think that speaks volumes too, imho.

You would work with him again if your assignor gave you a game with him. I love when guys are so adamant about whom they will not work with. You might not have that privilege to do so. Also it was just one game and one experience. I have had bad experiences with partners only to work with them the next time and be OK with the game. Not all assignors are going to care what you want personally or they will not use you in the end.

Peace

JRut- I agree with you. I thought about that when I wrote it. I was hoping to get a clarification from deecee on the play. His/her OP stated Team A was napping. That doesn't imply that they had someone ready on D.

You might be completely right, but that does not mean someone was not in LGP to and got ran over. Not all defenders had to be below the low block on their offensive side of the ball. :D

Peace

- Don't bother your assigner with this.

- Why get furious? Just smile and tell the head coach that *you* (you = deecee) need him to help you with this. If he asks why, tell him because it's the rule. If he asks about your partner again just repeat that it aint about your partner, *you* need the assistants to sit. Smile and thank him again. If he asks again about your partner lose the smile and tell him the assistants need to sit, period, and walk away. The first time an assistant gets up to address you or your partner T him up.

I think this is bad advice. You don't want to create a confrontation like this. Just get thru the game and move on with your career. Nothing good is going to be serve by you pushing the envelop here. If you're not going to report him, then just don't work with him again.

It's true! I did turn down a championship game because I refuse to work with some people. I knew this person was going to call all over the court, my area, his area, nope, not burning up gas in my tank to go over there and do that, rather stay at home.

Well I think your advice (and most of your advice) is just God awful. For one not to say anything confrontational and walk away from an irate coach is great advice. For one you do not have to say anything you regret. You are asking the coach to follow the rule. I also do not like to discuss anything my partner said, because it is not relevant to the conversation. If he wants to ask my partners something, he needs to talk to my partners. When I am talking to a coach all I can defend at that time are what I have witnessed. Have you really ever officiated before?

I do not believe you. Or you are one of the most unprofessional officials that have ever lived. I can work with anyone no matter what problems I have had with them in the past. If you were assigned a Championship game because you did not get along with one person, than you are not as smart as I give you credit for.

Peace

the defense had about one or 2 defenders get back -- but the offense had a lightning fast and quick guard who pretty much made it a a 2on1/2on2 drive and he passed to the wing who was racing down the court who caught and went in full speed. Defender who was back just waited squared up and took in straight in the chest right around the low block. Easy call from the parking lot IMO.

I thank you all for your comments and opinions -- I will not bother the assignor with this but I WILL NOT work this official again if I find out before I take an assignment he is working. He isnt in my HS association which is good but what killed it for me was after I told the Assistant at half time that what I said was the way it will be for me and thats all that mattered and then he comes in and contradicts me -- lost lot of respect there and if this happened after the second game and all done he would have heard it from me. but by then I didnt give 2 shoots.

I am pleased to know your assignor couldn't give "two shoots" about his client (the tourney organizer) by having one ref work 5 games with the last two being the most intense. And that's the partner he could scrounge up for you. Thanks, buddy.
Now we know how refs in your area feel about working those AAU tourneys.
What happens when your pard shows up to work with you again?
Tell your assignor no thanks to that guy, especially since he didn't care you were under the bus he was driving. I don't care either (who is standing) but I'm not telling them that.

Okay, JR, so as an assignor, would you want to know if a partner sold out someone like in the OP? Or would you write the tattler off as a whiner? Or something inbetween?

I'd want to know. The Association executive needs to know also, and they then have to do something about it. It's unprofessional as hell imo and the official doing that has to told <b>once</b> to cut that crap out. You don't throw your partner under the bus like that, and you sureashell don't go over to the coaches to suck around them after the game after making your partner look bad.

After being around different officials for a while and getting to know them, you figure out fairly easily who the whiners are and who has legitimate concerns. If it's a legitimate concern, then something should be done about it.

There's real life out there, Mad. Sometimes, assignors are real short of competent officials, especially when you're trying to fill slots in these AAU-type tournaments composed of hundreds of games. If you don't have some people work 5 games a day, then the alternative is having <b>no</b> officials on some of the games. You also might have to use officials that maybe you really don't want to use, but again, the alternative is no officials. And it's impossible to put all good officials together with each other because you just don't have enough "good" officials. You have some "fair" officials and you have some "poor officials. All officials bases are like that. That's why they get used in big tournaments like these. As an assignor, you also always want to partner up a "good" official with a "poor" official too, and not put two "poor" officials together.:eek:

It just ain't that easy, Mad, believe me.

DeeCee, are you concerned at all that your partner might be reporting you?

If he is going against your warnings to the coaches, might he also be reporting that you were not getting back in proper position on fast breaks? Is there possibly a need for a preemptive strike, so to speak? Or are you on good terms with the assignor and not worried about this?

Who said the coach was irate? I thought the problem was the AC standing. Not that the AC or HC was being irate. That's a different story. Telling an official to do something against there partner is bad advice and creates a situation can that turn ugly for the officials. Best to walk away from that and uphold the integrity of officiating then to challenge your partner in public. And like I said, never, ever work with this person again.

Here's my advice Deecee, if you told the AC he can't stand and your partner said he could. Let him stand, leave that issue along for the rest of the day. If the AC says one word to you that you don't like. Give him the technical foul signal, and tell both of them they must remain seated now. Partners comes over and says it's okay for them to stand. Fine, no problem. Now, if they say another word to you or get in your way. Technical and you now must leave the gym. Notice how I did not give them a technical for standing. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I bet you got there attention now, and I bet the remaining coach sits down.

I still think the assigner needs to know that this guy, unknowingly, doesn't know the rules, and he needs to be told. It is a way of learning for some of us hard heads. You can't tell them because they want listen to you, but the assigner can.

If you go back and read this statement, you need to be questioning your own intelligence. There are some people, about a hand full, I refuse to work with. Now, when I get called for an assignment, my answer now is always, it depends on who I'm working with. I get enough assignments now where I can do this. This wasn't the case a few years ago. I have worked hard and put myself in a position where I can now control when I work and who I work with.

If you gave him ANY credit for being smart, then you're not as smart as I gave YOU credit for. ;)

that's the thing was that the assignor was short officicals thats why I did 5 games instead of just 3 -- there were 2 really good officials on the neighboring court that I would rather have had work these 2 games but that feeling was after the fact.

This partner is not in my HS association so I dont have to worry about working any HS games with him and I doubt he would be higher than a frosh/soph ref as I have NEVER seen anyones eyes so glued to the basketball as his were.

Honestly OS -- I considered what you suggested -- let AC stand as soon as he questions anything I call whack him. I thought about it but even though its AAU -- I use those games to really work on game management and I believe if you can manage an AAU game -- HS is a walk in the park. At least HS has structure and a system in place for enforcement of rules and regulations. AAU goes tourney by tourney so what one coach does on the last game of a tourney wont carry over -- like getting ejected.

**Side note -- this same AC -- and I mentioned this to my partner and he just brushed it off like I had a grudge against him -- in a previous tourney about 2 months earlier after a game where I t'd him up late went after my partner cursing him out and saying he was the worst official ever -- he even said something like that to me and came at me. I took a step to him and told him he better think twice before doing or saying anything stupid and he walked away cussing me out. Thing was this was the last game of the tourney.
Fast forward to this past weekend -- for the most part he never said anything rude to me and I will be honest first sign of trouble he was not going to get a warning. I would have T'd him up for standing the second time if my partner hadnt said it was ok.

Here is why I have decided not to say anything -- there are some officials that will learn and some that want to -- this guy will never learn and I usually dont say stuff like this but I dont think he will ever be at an even level as an official with me. Thats just the facts -- there are guys way better than me and guys way worse -- some try and move up because they want to and can. He might want to I dont think he can. I would never guess so much drama from a damn basketball game. thanks for all your replies

This is the reason no one should listen to anything you have to say. Dan did not say anything about his partner. He asked the coach to listen what he was telling him. If you had officiated anything, you would know that coaches play that game all the time trying to tell us what our partner did or said. The coach wanted to play the classic bad cop, good cop. Hey, it has been proven no one really likes your advice at all.

What levels do you work again?

If you really worked for anyone of significance, you would know that you have little or no choice in who you work with in the first place. I can tell you if you work college ball, you are not going to tell an assignor you will not work with someone or they will just get rid of you and consider you the problem. I can tell you have never worked those games before. Assignors are assignors for a reason. You do not tell your boss how to do their job. This is why I cannot believe you told an assignor you did not want to work with someone in a championship game.

Peace

Jeff, it's easier to understand and believe when you realize he simply misspelled "intramural championship game."

Actually, this is the perfect place to work on this type of thing. The coaches was trying to (lack of a better word) punk you by going to your partner and getting your decision reversed. Have you heard the saying, it's not always nice to fool with mother nature? Repalce mother nature for official working your game. Now we just wait. When you hear them say, TRAVEL! TRAVEL! THAT'S A FOUL! Beep! Technical foul, AC! Now you must remain seated, oh, and please don't forget to say that right after giving them the T.

Your objective here was 1 of 2 things. You can both stand up but you better not say a word directed at me, or only one of you is going to stand up and coach this game. Consider it a success if only one coach is standing at one time. I personnally don't like to pick fights in this area, but once you stated AC couldn't stand. The line was drawn. Don't fool with mother nature.

Sometimes Scrappy you have to consider the source. ;)

Peace

Didn't Mother Nature also say "I'm warning you coach, don't curse at me <b>again</b>"?

I get it. You'd better not say a word, but if you do say a word, it is OK if the word that you say is a curse word directed at the official, but don't say that curse word again, and don't say any other word other than a curse word in the first place. Or else.

Words to live by.

I'll agree with that 150%.

The people that frequent this forum, yes! But this forum does not represent all of America. It just represents a few uptight officials that has to have it there way. Your way or no way. Sorry, I couldn't resist that.

Believe it or not big dog, I told them no. I turned back a college game this year, same reason. I also assign and maybe it's because of the way I feel about this. But I have respect for someone that says they prefer not to work with this person or that person. I bet this happens more often than not. You don't have to tell your assigner you don't like the guy, you just click the button unavailable this day, something unforeseen came up. The guy that asked me to work the C-Game was a friend and I could talk to him honesty.

Remember one thing JRUT. The laws of business in America is an open market society. When you are good at what you do. Someones going to want you, then you can dictate the terms.

I have talked to officials all over the country in person. This is not the only place I have have conversations with officials. You talk unlike any other official that has had any success. You sound more like a rookie that is trying to prove they know something. Successful officials that I have come in contact with do not talk like you in any way.

Believe it or not big dog, I told them no. I turned back a college game this year, same reason. I also assign and maybe it's because of the way I feel about this. But I have respect for someone that says they prefer not to work with this person or that person. I bet this happens more often than not. You don't have to tell your assigner you don't like the guy, you just click the button unavailable this day, something unforeseen came up. The guy that asked me to work the C-Game was a friend and I could talk to him honesty.[/QUOTE]

I have talked to a lot of officials that complain they had to work with a particular person. I would never suggest it never happens, but it is very rare. The ones that are able to choose are likely the top officials out the entire area and they can demand a lot of things. I guess it is possible you could have turned down a game for that stated reason (if you told the assignor that was the reason), but I seriously doubt you will get many opportunities outside of this "Championship game."

First of all this is not the law of business at work. If someone does not want to not hire you because you are not reliable or that you are not trustworthy they can do that. I did not say someone can make you do anything, but they can decide you are not who they want to make the next call to.

Sometimes I wonder do you really understand what people are saying to you.

Peace

Whatever....

Does that mean you do not have anything else to say? :D

Peace

Yes! I give up. My head hurts arguing with you.

Hee Hee. :D

Peace

If Chuck Elias was in this hemisphere, he'd be on that like white on rice.

We're proud of you, Scrappy.

Can you imagine telling a college assignor that you're refusing an game because you don't want to work with the rest of the crew that he assigned to that game?

Lah me.........

Beam me up, Scotty.:rolleyes:

Get in get done get out. And T up the AC the next time he disregards the warning despite what the 'partner' said.

You don't have to tell the assigner anything, Mr. Knowitall. You just turn back the game, I'm unavailable that day. Serves the same purpose. BTW, I'm just curious, why do you keep track of every little thing I say? Why is it so important to you to over-emphasize what I say? If I say I work college or assign college, why is this news worth repeating? I'm going to be honest, some of you guys really act immature out here. I expect this type of child's play from grade school kids, but adults, particularly referees. I know you're trying to make me the joke, the village idiot, laugh at me behind my back type people. My question is why? Why is that so important to you? People say I like to start problems. Says things just to stir people up. This is the biggest hypocrisy on this forum. Do you ever stop to look at yourself? Or do you spend so much time laughing and making fun of others that you don't see yourself.

Just like Michael Jackson said, some of us need to stop and take a look at the man in the mirror.
If you want to make the world a better place,
take a look at yourself and make a....