1st varsity Tech awarded
 

Saturday evening GV

During late in the second quarter the home HC was really getting on OUR (2man crew) nerves. Lucky for us he had to walk us to our classroom during half :). I told him during that walk that if he kept up the way he was he was going to a T in the 3rd. He asked me about a no-call earlier and I told him that if this is how he had been approaching me earlier we would be fine. I said ask away and I will answer as many questions as I possibly can -- but make statements and I won't even acknowledge them (for the most part). He appologized and I felt that it would be the end of that. I was right. but maybe I should have had this talk with the visiting coach too :) -- he had been perfect all first half.

Halfway through the third quarter his girl goes for a layup and misses -- she jumps backwar (not a lot) to get the rebound and defense jumps forward(about the same distance) and they both make some contact and offense gets the rebound (coach is yelling for this foul to be called but it was incendental and his player had another pretty much unontested attempts at a layup), pivots away from the defense and attempts another layup and misses :(. Now defense gets the rebound and same offensive player just reaches in out of frustration and commits a foul. I am lead in front of visiting bench (the visiting player was called for the foul).

Coach is irate and starts Yelling "TIME OUT!!!!" (x) 3 or 4. I KNEW this TO was for a jaw session with me and I HAD to walk right by him as I was about 6-8 feet away when he called the TO. He starts going off about the contact and I calmly told him "coach let me report the foul and TO and if you have any questions I would answer them but I would prefer if you addressed your team FIRST during your TO." He didnt apparently want to address his team -- So while I am reporting foul and TO -- he is waiting outside the huddle for me. When I was done he said he used that TO to address my nocall. OK fine I will try and work with him here.

coach: how was there no foul on that rebound my girl was hammered./?
me: Jim (name has been changed) are you asking me a question or making a statement. I can answer your question if you want.
coach: that was a foul and then you call that touch foul after.
me: Jim I am trying to work with you here but you are making it difficult. (now I start to move away slowly).
coach: I want you to officiate the game.
me: Jim this conversation is over I would suggest you drop it from here on in. (I could have T'd him here -- but this conversation was really only audible to me, him and his team and I can handle this).

Now I go to the other side of the gym as per full timout requirements and wait by the block. TO over and I hear "THAT's Horrible" -- I look over and Jim is staring at me he says again "That's horrible" and I give him the stop/cut it off hand signal. My partner is about the put the ball in play right by Jim's bench and he says again "That's really horrible" still looking at me and by then I had NO choice. T --

Jim: Yes you are just giving them the game Thank you.
I report the T
me: Jim you just gave them that I just called it. Partner calm him down and seat belt him.

He was fine from there on in and didn't say anything. Now I know I had 2 opportunities earlier to T him up -- but I personally passed on the first because I was in his den and he didn't really cross the line too bad IMO -- the conversation of sorts was between him and I and I am fine with that. The second time could have been after his first or second remark of "that's horrible" as hes had plenty of time to cool off. Now the whole time I was calm and even tried to calm him down -- I think if I had not addressed him during the TO he would have earned that T much sooner even though when I left him I felt it wasnt over and it will get to that soon. I try not to deal with coaches when it is very clear they are frustrated and angry as that only makes things weird but this situation I dont think I had any choice-- I was right in front when I made the call, he specifically called the TO to "discuss" with me and let me know that. One thing I did appreciate and my partner mentioned it earlier was that my partner DID NOT come in to help me out. this was a 1on1 converstaion if anything and I think help from the partner would have made it worse. He did ask me if I should have T'd him up during the TO and I said most guys would in that instance -- I didn't take anything personally, and I thought he was acting more out of frustration so I gave him the benefit of doubt. Home coach had a warning I felt that in this case the visitors deserved it too. Now if he had stepped over the line and blatantly insulted integrity or said some choice words no doubt about it but here its a personal choice why I DID NOT T. How, if you do, handle visibly irate coaches when they make it clear they want to have a word with you?

It sounds like a good T. A couple of things though, first of all, why is a coach in charge of officials at halftime of a game? This should not happen and other arrangements should be made. Secondly, since he was walking you to your room, I would caution you not to talk about the game. If you're going to warn him, do it during the game. You wouldn't put up with him complaining about things at the half, so I wouldn't initiate a conversation about the game to him.

JMO, but any story that takes that long to tell means it took too long to call a T.

Junker thanks for the advise and it makes sense -- they had no other personnel to unlock the door.

BNR -- good point

[quote=deecee]Coach is irate and starts Yelling "TIME OUT!!!!" (x) 3 or 4. I KNEW this TO was for a jaw session with me and I HAD to walk right by him as I was about 6-8 feet away when he called the TO. He starts going off about the contact and I calmly told him "coach let me report the foul and TO and if you have any questions I would answer them but I would prefer if you addressed your team FIRST during your TO." He didnt apparently want to address his team -- So while I am reporting foul and TO -- he is waiting outside the huddle for me. When I was done he said he used that TO to address my nocall. OK fine I will try and work with him here.

IMO, this is where we have to be jerks on purpose. You could not win, so you should walk him back to his bench and politely tell him to take his timeout.

coach: how was there no foul on that rebound my girl was hammered./?
me: Jim (name has been changed) are you asking me a question or making a statement. I can answer your question if you want.
coach: that was a foul and then you call that touch foul after.
me: Jim I am trying to work with you here but you are making it difficult. (now I start to move away slowly).
coach: I want you to officiate the game.
me: Jim this conversation is over I would suggest you drop it from here on in. (I could have T'd him here -- but this conversation was really only audible to me, him and his team and I can handle this).

That last statement would provoke/challenge many coaches.

Now I go to the other side of the gym as per full timout requirements and wait by the block. TO over and I hear "THAT's Horrible" -- I look over and Jim is staring at me he says again "That's horrible" and I give him the stop/cut it off hand signal. My partner is about the put the ball in play right by Jim's bench and he says again "That's really horrible" still looking at me and by then I had NO choice. T --

Oh yes. The almighty stop sign. :rolleyes: How did that work out for you? :D

Jim: Yes you are just giving them the game Thank you.



I report the T
me: Jim you just gave them that I just called it. Partner calm him down and seat belt him.

Did you really say this? No reason for this at all.
[quote]

I think it was a good technical foul, but there was too much talking.

deecee -- kudos to you! IMHO I think you handled the situation well. Officials have different "tolerance levels" when dealing w/ coaches who are clearly frustrated or angry. The key is to do what you did - be the calmest person in the situation. You gave him a couple of chances to calm down and got out of there when it became apparent that he was only interested in yelling and not looking for an explanation.

Others will say that you gave him "too much rope".....I think the T should be the last resort after you've tried all of you other options.

As for handling visibly irate coaches, I think you need to explain that you're happy to answer questions or discuss a specific call. However the coach cannot scream and cannot make large gestures (which only incite the crowd and team). Keep in mind that you're NOT going to change their minds or convince them you're right. You're really trying to "talk them down from the ledge". I try to explain what I saw, use non-commital language ("I understand", "I hear you coach", "you're still in this game", etc), and then give him space. If he's still coming after you, "you've made your point; let's move on/we're not going to discuss any more". Lastly the stop sign....and ultimately the T. That's what I try to use. It's really a gut-feel thing; some games are better off w/ a T, while it's generally best to avoid them if you can help it. Sometimes you can't.......like your situation above.

coach: how was there no foul on that rebound my girl was hammered?
me: Jim (name has been changed) Are you questioning my judgement?
coach: no but...
me: good...

and walk away.

All I can say is to address the behavior first, then answer their questions if their behavior changes.

This took some time for me to finally get a good hold of, but I will not discuss any situation with a coach until they act like they have some sense.

I had a situation this weekend in a huge rivarly game that I had to handle. I told both coaches they needed to get back to coaching because I was not going to tolerate this all night. I told both coaches the same thing and they went back to coaching and the rest of the game was fine.

If you addressed the behavior first (it is also easy to say that from behind a computer) you might not have needed to give a T. Also having said that, I really have no problem with what you did. The coach was likely testing you and might have kept on no matter what you said. Take it as a learning experience and get better from this point on.

Peace

Me: "Coach (I would recommend not using first names), in my judgement, that was incidental contact"...then walk away.

It lets the coach know that you saw the contact but vhose not to penalize it because there was no foul by either player. There is not much a coach can say after that.

Nope, not me.

If a coach asks in a reasonable manner I will answer any question to the best of my ability within a reasonable amount of time.

If a coach calls a TO to get a piece of me he aint getting sh1t.

Dan i usually follow that principle but this time i had to mow through the wall to get to the well if you know what I mean

Snip!

Report the foul and head to the timeout spot. Choose the one opposite this coach's bench.

I never engage a coach (or try not to anyway) when the question is the equivalent of "when did you stop beating your wife"? He isn't "using a timeout to address a no call" cause I'm not staying around to "address" it.

When the coach assumes facts not in evidence (his player "getting hammered") you have absolutely no chance of having a rational discussion. Get out of there and if the coach starts yelling across the court, well, then everyone knows why you're whacking him.

When I'm doing my best work (which isn't always!) and a coach is making statements rather than asking questions, I find that just, "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you." works until I can get the heck away from them. I still don't understand why, but it really seems to cut off the flow and gets them back to the game. Sometimes, it even makes the fans laugh a little in a positive way. I don't get it, but hey, it gets the job done.

Or alternatively.....STFU, STFU, STFU...

Well, no, that's never worked for me.

One thing, I never address a coach by his first name, never...ever.

It's always Coach last name here or just Coach.

Just like I hate it when a coach addresses me by first name during a game I believe that goes both ways.

Because if you know the name of one coach, but not the other it could look like a conflict of interest.

That and it just looks like you're too chummy with them.

Address them respectfully, but not with their first names.

I'm taking my foul to the table, reporting it, saying timeout white, look at the coach and say, "Which one do you want," briefly wait, if he answers I report what he requested, if he doesn't I turn to the other bench and my partner and say, "Full," report that and go to the block.

It's like Jeopardy, I'm not talking unless it's a question, and even if it's a question it isn't getting answered until they are acting like an adult instead of a 3 year old.

They chase me...physically or verbally, they get whacked.

I have a fellow ref who always says this. One time the coach asked him why he kept saying this in response to all of his comments.

His reply was "Because they won't let me say..."

:D

I agree that if you use call one coach by name and not the other, then it looks bad to the unnamed coach. But if I know both coaches, which happens a lot now that I've been around the HS game for a while, I have no problem calling them by their first names.

I don't like it when a coach calls me by my first name and they've never met me before. But I can't do anything about it either, so I don't let it bother me.

If all three of you know each other from league play, it's silly to pretend that you don't.

I agree, and I prefer that the coach calls me by my first name -- it helps to get my attention when s/he's requesting a TO, for example.

I call both coaches by their first names and make sure I have them (I grab a program on the way in or look the teams up on the Internet before heading out). BTW, a coach that has never met me that uses my name -- this tells me he took the time to bother getting my name and then remembering it.

I just read Bob Jenkins post and we worked a game together Saturday night where the coaches did this. Never met them, but they knew our names. Cool.

I've not NOT used a first name with a coach in years. We're all adults.

Here's where you need to contact your assignor. Someone else needs to be there to take care of you or they need to give the officials a key. A HC should not be your game management.

Wrong Question
 

What if the response was: "yes, in this play I am questioning your judgement?

You asked for that one and CANNOT bang him for the response.

Very Calm
 

I think it is easy to sit back and say I would have T'd him earlier, which I may have in this situation, but your calmness is impressive. I know my problem is getting angry when I am being yelled at. If you can remain calm and professional you can never be wrong.

Anger makes things worse and can cause to early of a T or a bad response. Believe me I know...

Coaches cannot call time out to speak with you. "Coach please use your time out to coach your team." Turn and walk away. Now if he screams more you have your Lay-up of a T.

Wow this is like Therapy for me...I feel better just thinking about these words and now that I have written them down, I feel like I can use them calmly. If I have a canned response ready, I can use it under stress.

The answer to that is "Don't!".

And if he doesn't listen, then you bang him.

Coaches can call times-out for whatever they like, that's not our business. But we don't have to engage them in conversation. I'm not going to tell the coach "please use your time out to coach your team". I'll answer one reasonably asked question then I'm walking away.

Coaches always call me by my first name (which apparently is Dickhead).

Reminds me of the Bill Cosby:Himself routine where Bill grew up thinking his name was Jesus Christ.

i have no problem with a coach calling my by my name -- and me calling them by theirs -- i find that in many situations you cal defuse it by being calm and addressing them by their first name. I always introduce my partner and myself before a game and wish coaches a good game and if they have any check if they have any questions. I try and add a bit more of the human element to officiating rather than what becomes robotic sometimes as mandated in the manual. Up until this year I had only given about 4 maybe 5 T's in HS -- this year already at 4 -- 2 coaches (BFresh, boys JV, GV) and one player.

Not that im getting less tolerant just that I am seeing more dramatics than ever and sometimes I feel like im in a production of the West Side Story rather than a basketball game. I will say this the lower level coaches got theirs much faster.

I still have that album. On an old LP--to which a bunch of posters will respond "Whatinthehell is an LP?"

I watched the movie version on HBO. It's one of the first times I remember watching an "adult" show with my parents and them laughing as hard as I was. My poor mother was in tears and barely able to breathe during the dentist bit. ("How can I ribinse, when I hab no bottom libip? Oooookaybee!")

That's easy. Liquid Propane. Duh.

The longer you officiate, the less emotion you'll have in these situations. I used to get a little firey at times when coaches were a pain, but the more times you go through it, the less it bothers you. After a while, you just throw the T and move on. I work one JH tournament every year for an assignor. This year I had a dad come on the floor after his kid was ejected from a game (one of the reasons I work this tourney is that 1 T and you're done for the game, 2 and you're gone for the weekend). I suprised myself because I had no urge to say anthing to the irate father. I just stood back, let our game management escort the guy out, and got back to work. A few years ago I may have gotten myself into a shouting match with the guy. Experience goes a long way in this business.

Or you just shake your head and walk away -- find a reason to talk to your partner on the far block or something. Takes two to argue about something. After seeing your back for 10 seconds, the coach will likely go back to coaching.

I got to say, when I read that you were watching an "adult" show with your parents, Cosby didn't come to mind.:D Back in the day I did a Cosby bit at the all-state speech contest. Buck Jones, it was a favorite. Sorry, this is turning into a "bragpost". I was an all state speech selection 2 years running. Let me know if you want autographs.;)

Who said I want to bang him?

If he asks in a reasonable, respectful manner I'll explain what I saw. No biggie.

If he's anything less than respectful then I take care of business, regardless of what you think I can or cannot do. No biggie.

Don't you introduce yourself to the coaches before the game starts?

I don't mind when a coach calls me by my name. I'm sort of impressed when a coach I don't know actually remembers my name half way thru the second half.

I'm partial to the "Why is there air?" album.

I have always felt like it means something when someone knows and remembers my first name. Gentlemen, think about it for a minute. You meet a young lady and she remembers your name from a previous meeting. You probably made some kind of impression for her to remember. Not really the same thing as a coach, but hey - I'm just saying!