high pitch scream in shooters face a "T"

[ballsandstrikes]

I had a girls game tonight in Michigan. Girl 3 times during game let out a mariah Carey scream right in the shooters ear as she was shooting. The third time she did it I T'd her up sighting unsportsmanlike conduct AND stupidity to the coach when questioned. I explained to the coach that yelling "shot" or "ball" is part of basketball but letting out ear piercing squeels is not.
in 9 years this was only the 5th player tech I have handed out. I have lots of patience. Should I have had more here?
p.s. this was a VERY physical close game which also entered my mind because had someone screamed like that in my ear my first reaction may have been to turn around with an elbow. I wanted to prevent that.

[mick]

Originally posted by ballsandstrikes
I had a girls game tonight in Michigan. Girl 3 times during game let out a mariah Carey scream right in the shooters ear as she was shooting. The third time she did it I T'd her up sighting unsportsmanlike conduct AND stupidity to the coach when questioned. I explained to the coach that yelling "shot" or "ball" is part of basketball but letting out ear piercing squeels is not.
in 9 years this was only the 5th player tech I have handed out. I have lots of patience. Should I have had more here?
p.s. this was a VERY physical close game which also entered my mind because had someone screamed like that in my ear my first reaction may have been to turn around with an elbow. I wanted to prevent that.

I don't know that rule.
Is it a local thing?
mick

[Oz Referee]

I would have warned the player (and coach) the first time it happened, the second time it would have been a T.

Mick as far as FIBA rules go - this is covered under the concept of "baiting" a player, I would imagine that you could also justify calling a T under the concept of unsportsmanlike conduct. Regardless, this behavious clearly has no place on a basketball court - if sreaming is the best defense you've got...take up table tennis!

[mick]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
I would have warned the player (and coach) the first time it happened, the second time it would have been a T.

Mick as far as FIBA rules go - this is covered under the concept of "baiting" a player, I would imagine that you could also justify calling a T under the concept of unsportsmanlike conduct. Regardless, this behavious clearly has no place on a basketball court - if sreaming is the best defense you've got...take up table tennis!

Duane,
I give up what does "baiting" mean in Australian?
How do you define an unsporting verbal sound? Is all talking unsporting... or just certain sounds at certain pitches?
mick

[Oz Referee]

yay, I've confused the American's again!!

Baiting - goading, verbally (or occasionally physically) provoking someone. Is similar to trash-talk. Comes from baiting a fish, ie encouraging the fish to take the bait, and then end up on the hook.

My interpretation of the rules on yelling etc at a shooter is this: yelling "shot" (or any varient) so as to advise your teamates is OK. I prefer players to do this after the ball has left the shooters hand - then there can be no room for complaint from the offence. I do not tolerate yelling in a shooters face (or screaming) or clapping at a shooter (especially behind a player on a lay-up - something that quiet a few players in the rec leagues here do). In any case, I always warn the player first (one warning applies to all players on or off the court) and am more than happy to explain my feelings about this type of behaviour to the players and coaches.

[mick]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
yay, I've confused the American's again!!

Baiting - goading, verbally (or occasionally physically) provoking someone. Is similar to trash-talk. Comes from baiting a fish, ie encouraging the fish to take the bait, and then end up on the hook.

My interpretation of the rules on yelling etc at a shooter is this: yelling "shot" (or any varient) so as to advise your teamates is OK. I prefer players to do this after the ball has left the shooters hand - then there can be no room for complaint from the offence. I do not tolerate yelling in a shooters face (or screaming) or clapping at a shooter (especially behind a player on a lay-up - something that quiet a few players in the rec leagues here do). In any case, I always warn the player first (one warning applies to all players on or off the court) and am more than happy to explain my feelings about this type of behaviour to the players and coaches.

Duane,
Your definition of "baiting" is the same as ours. I was confused when you said the scream could be considered baiting. I see by your definition it cannot.

Please refresh me. What are the rules on yelling etc to which you refer? I do not know the rule.

I see that verbal attempts to distract an opponent are offensive to you. That certainly is your prerogative... to be offended, yet I can only assume you allow the yelling of "shot" ,and no other words or sounds, based upon personal feeling and not based upon any specific ruling or interpretation.

As a player, I spent many years telling an opponent to "shoot it", asking them "where're you going?", saying, "ball", "pick", "switch", "that's two ... bad", "nice shot", "great pass".
I do not remember yelling "shot". My teammates knew that, and maybe the opponents did not.

I am not offended when players make verbal noises with the intent of distraction.
mick

[stripes]

Ballsandstrikes,

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I call more T's than most of my partners, I refuse to put up with crap from players, coaches, etc.

I cannot see a T on this one. I've said it before and I'll say it again...This is not golf. Noise is part of the game. If someone can distract you with an ear piercing scream, good for them. If you can't take it, bad for you. I cannot see how this is any different than yelling "Ball, ball, ball" or something similar. All of this tactics are meant to distract the opponent. While they are definitely annoying, I do not believe they are illegal.

I can also appreciate you wanting to prevent a problem from the player being screamed at, but I don't believe that that is enough justification for the call.

[ChuckElias]

Ballsandstrikes,

I do not call this a T. I've never given a T for this. I don't call it b/c I've specifically been told by my board interpreter that it's not warrented.

Having said that: Good for you. If that is not unsportsmanlike, than I don't know what is. This is one rule that I would actually appreciate seeing changed. Screaming in somebody's face is not a mind game, it's not gamesmanship, it's not a tactic. I would love to see it eliminated by rule from the game.

Good for you. If your board doesn't come down on you for it, keep it up. Make 'em actually learn how to play the game.

Chuck

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by stripes
I cannot see a T on this one. I've said it before and I'll say it again...This is not golf. Noise is part of the game. If someone can distract you with an ear piercing scream, good for them. If you can't take it, bad for you. I cannot see how this is any different than yelling "Ball, ball, ball" or something similar. All of this tactics are meant to distract the opponent. While they are definitely annoying, I do not believe they are illegal.

I can also appreciate you wanting to prevent a problem from the player being screamed at, but I don't believe that that is enough justification for the call.

OK, I've had a QUICK look through the FIBA rule book (and POE) and I can't find anything that specifically addresses this at all.

However, Rule 49.1.2 refers to "baiting an opponent" and says that this is an technical foul (refers to waving hands in someone's eyes).

Also, 46.1.1 talks about unsportsnmanlike fouls and not making a play at the ball within the "spirit and intent" of the rules.

Having said this, I would like to make 2 points:
* Firstly, I have been taught to call this, according to FIBA rules, so until an evaluator tells me not to, I am going to continue blowing it as I stated in my previous post.

* Secondly, if there is any action that is unsportsmanlike, surely this must be. Allowing players to use these techniques is akin to saying that you don't have to learn how to play defence. An analogy to me would be allowing players to "moon" a shooter in the hope of puting them off their shot - there is nothing in the rule book that specifically forbids it, but it is definitely against the spirit of the game!

[mick]

Originally posted by Oz Referee


Having said this, I would like to make 2 points:
* Firstly, I have been taught to call this, according to FIBA rules, so until an evaluator tells me not to, I am going to continue blowing it as I stated in my previous post.

Duane,
Has an evaluator told you to make that call, or is it your interpretation?
We do what we must do.

mick

[ballsandstrikes]

I would say this, we as officials are left to interpret acts that occur on the court as applied to sportsmanship. The rule book does not cover specifics like yelling "shot etc" However I do recall trash talking being a point of enforcement recently by the NF.
In this referees opinion, yelling "ball" or "shot" has become an accepted part of the game. Screaming at a loud high pitch in someones along with being annoying can be dangerous. I guess I should have pointed out that at least one of the times it occured she was directly to the side of the girl as she was taking a layup. The shooter grabbed her ear in obvious discomfort.
In my humble opinion, the conduct was unsportsmanlike. I would make the call again if the situation came up (which in 9 years it has not lol )

[Mark Padgett]

I usually do not have any objection to players yelling things at opponents during a game. We have all heard every girl shout "ball" and "shot" until we couldn't stand to hear it anymore, and yet we don't do anything about it because it's really no big deal (BTW - I rarely hear boys do this). Sometimes, when a girl is yelling "ball", I say to her, "yes - it is a ball." Sometimes they get embarrassed and stop and it usually gets a smile from the other player.

Intentionally screaming directly into someone's ear might be another matter, however. I have not seen (or more correctly, heard) it, but I think I might consider it a safety issue and give a warning, then a T. Certainly, you can contribute directly to injuring someone's hearing that way. I think you could make a pretty good case that this goes beyond the usual yelling and screaming players do during a game based on that factor.

[Edited by Mark Padgett on Oct 19th, 2001 at 12:21 PM]

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by mick

Duane,
Has an evaluator told you to make that call, or is it your interpretation?
We do what we must do.

mick

To be honest - both.

Here in Australia (or at least in Sydney) we are starting to focus on player/coach behaviour, with something of a "zero-tolerance" attitude. I have actually been criticised lately because I try and talk a situation through before using my whistle - but that is a whole other topic

[mikeref]

Screaming at the free thrower is an unsportsman like act. I would give a warning first and if it continues....WACK!!!!! Difficult for me to understand doing it any differently! I know that officiating is an art not an exact science, but letting immature behavior such as this go CANNOT be good for the game!! What are we teaching our young people by allowing such reprehensable behavior? If you can't beat them fair and square resort to any method you can think of to beat them. All i can say is......not in MY game!!!

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by mikeref
If you can't beat them fair and square resort to any method you can think of to beat them. All i can say is......not in MY game!!!

HEAR HEAR!!