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Question #58 is generating quite a bit of discussion in another forum and I am the only one who is defending the answer on the IAABO answer key.
While A-1 is dribbling, A-2 fouls B-2 and B-3 fouls A-3 simultaneously. Both team are in the bonus. Official awards both teams A one and one and resumes play wiht the alternating possession procedure. Is the official correct. The answer key say YES, with following NFHS Rules Book citations: R4-S19-A8: A false double foul is a situation in which there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the clock is started following the first, and such that at least one of the attributes of a double foul is absent. R6-S3-A3g: In all jump-ball situations toher than the start of the game and each extra period, an alternating-possession throw-in shall result when: Opponents commit simultaneous personal or technical fouls. I added the following NFHS Rules Book citations: R4-S19-A1: A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing a normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead. R4-S19-A2: A common foul is a personal foul which is neither flagrant nor intentional nor committed against a player trying or tapping for a field goal nor a part of a double or multiple foul. R4-S19-A7a: A double personal foul is a situation in which two opponents commit personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time. R8-S7: Penalties for fouls are administered in the order in which the fouls occured. Summary of Penalties for All Fouls: The offended player or team is awarded the following: 3. Bonus free throw: a. For the seventh, eigth and ninth tream foul each half, if the first free throw is succesful. b. Beginning with the 10th team foul each half whether or not the first free throw is succesful. I would like to entertain comments. |
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although I believe your argument is weakly worded. That's my comment, consider yourself entertained. Here are 2 links to the discussion, it gets rather thick but hang in there. http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline/ww...ges/19476.html http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline/ww...ges/19346.html |
Simultaneous fouls, go to the arrow. 6-3-3g
This is not a FDF as the fouls occur simultaneously, not one after the other. This is a poor IAABO interpretation of an NF rule. And that's all I have to say about that. |
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Dan, I agree with you that my response was somewhat poorly worded; I often tell people that because I am an engineer mathematics in my first language and English is my second language. Having said that, there was a later post that more clearly explained my position and is the position that the NFHS and NCAA takes and here it is:
"That is, if A1 fouls B1 at 10:00, and B2 fouls A2 also at 10:00, the time on the B2 foul is "before the clock started following the [A1 foul]". (Obviously, I'm ignoring the situation where the clock starts for a fraction of a second, but it isn't registered onthe display.) It soesn't matter whether the fouls occurred simultaneously or sequentially -- the definition still applies." by Bob Jenkins BktBallRef, IAABO does not "interpret" the rules as an IAABO interpretation. The fact the fouls are by both teams are a critical factor in them being part of a false double foul. When both teams commit fouls before the clock starts after the first foul that makes the entire fouls sequence (boy, how I hated to use that word) a false double foul. R6-S3-A3g tells us who we will but the ball into play after all of the other required penalties are imposed. |
Ok...I have read everything on the other board about this topic, and am afraid I have to side with Mr. DeNucci, Sr...there is no provision in the NFHS rules for a "simultaneous" personal foul, so the only rule applicable to this situation would be the false double foul rule - in theory...we can't just decide to make up our own interpretation here and call them simultaneous fouls when those don't "exist" in the rule book...
DJ |
If all you guys who support that answer are correct, then riddle me this, Batman: what the heck is NF 4-19-7 referring to when it describes a double foul and indicates there are no free throws?
In the original post, the fouls occurred at the same time, not one, then the other before the clock started. In your thinking, there is <i><b>no such thing </b></i> as a "double foul", only "false double fouls". Certainly, I think there is a difference and I also think I know what the difference is because I have called both. Now, I will agree there is no such thing as a "multiple foul" - at least never in my games ;) If a partner ever would call one of those, I would override him and then chump-slap him into the next county. |
Double foul doesn't fit the original situation either, because it has to be two players fouling each other...the original situation had A2 fouling B2 and at the same time B3 fouling A3...that surely aresn't no double foul...and again, there is no provision for simultaneous personal fouls...that wasn't too hard of a riddle...
DJ |
Here's my thinking on this mess...
1. It's not a double foul because it's not the same 2 players fouling each other. 2. It might be a false double foul because one of the elements of a double foul is missing, meaning both teams shoot FT's. 3. Simultaneous foul is interesting but there's not enough support in the book to wave off the FT's. NCAA 4.26.15 defines a simultaneous foul as exactly what happens in this play. NCAA 6.3.1f tells us we use the AP when simultaneous fouls occur. Nothing anywhere in the NCAA book about NOT shooting free throws on simultaneous fouls. (I'm quoting the NCAA book because I have an electronic copy of it making the search easier. I believe it gives us at least as much, maybe even more guidance than the NF book.) I am vey willing to be shown how I'm wrong on any of these (except #4), so if there's a hole here please point it out. |
Arrrgh! I hate to be wrong. I missed the part about the fouls not being by the same players. I guess that's why I should wear my glasses when I read these things.
Actually, I was having a "senior moment". My track record isn't too bad, however. I've only been wrong three times in my life and I've been married twice. You do the math. ;) |
6.3.3g does mention simultaneous personal fouls so the answer is yes. We go to the AP arrow after the free throws because this is also false multiple. So the IAABO answer is correct.
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NCAA simultaneous personal foul administration
. Nothing anywhere in the NCAA book
about NOT shooting free throws on simultaneous fouls. Dan_ref.. For a simultaneous personal foul under NCAA rules, each foul carries its own penalty, and then the alternating possession arrow is used for the resumption of play. Therefore, it is actually possible for both teams to shoot bonus free throws in this situation. I wish that I could site the page in the rule book for you, but I do not have it with me. I am getting this information from a Foul/Penalty chart which my supervisor gave me last week. |
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Chuck ;) |
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DJ, simulataneous fouls do most certainly exist. See 6-3-3g. I can't tell you why it's not listed in the definitions but it is listed in rule 6. Double fouls and double technical fouls are handled the same way. Why would simulataneous personal fouls and simultaneous technical fouls be handled differently? Answer, they shouldn't. When simultaneous fouls occur, it becomes an AP situation. When simultaneous technical fouls occur, it becomes an AP situation. In neither case do you shoot FTs. Tim, you said, "this is also false multiple." I'm sure you wrote that mistakenly, since there's a foul on each team, not two fouls on the same team. Mark D., this is most certainly an IAABO interpretation of the play. And it is not a FDF. Why? As I've been trying to tell you for a week that these fouls occur simultaneously, not one after the other, as in a FDF. BigWhistle, it really doesn't matter what the NCAA says as this is an NF sitch. Finally, this is fun! Glad to see things are starting to heat up! :D |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
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saints be praised and Good Night Irene! Hey Brad, can I somehow get this post gilded and mounted on a plaque? :D Anyway, great discussion folks and if anyone gets IAABO #58 wrong they should be made to work only girls JH games for an entire season. :) |
BktBallRef this is most certainly a false doubl foul situation, please read the following, it clarifies what I have been saying:
"That is, if A1 fouls B1 at 10:00, and B2 fouls A2 also at 10:00, the time on the B2 foul is "before the clock started following the [A1 foul]". (Obviously, I'm ignoring the situation where the clock starts for a fraction of a second, but it isn't registered onthe display.) It doesn't matter whether the fouls occurred simultaneously or sequentially -- the definition still applies." by Bob Jenkins Furthermore, this is not an IAABO interpretation, IAABO only uses NFHS/NCAA intepretations. |
Mark, first, if you're going to quote someone else, quote everything, not just what serves your purpose. here's Bob's entire post.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote:
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Yes it is fun finally getting back into the rule book. |
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I believe there's a difference.... I don't see it as a FDF and it's definitely not a DF...... No FT's and I'm going to the arrow.... [Edited by Just Curious on Oct 19th, 2001 at 12:08 AM] |
Just to defend myself a little, I know that simultaneous fouls are "mentioned" in 6-3-3...I never said they weren't mentioned - I said there is no "provision" for them...in other words, there is nothing in the rule book to tell us exactly how to handle them...also, "aresn't" actually is a term we Vancouverites use to differentiate ourselves from the Canadian Vancouverites - who stole our name, by the way...we figure no one else would ever use a word like that!!
DJ |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
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Chuck :D |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
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Chuck |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
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game! And you'll know exactly what to do! :) |
Why is the foul situation in Question #58 a false double foul?
We really need to go back in history a little bit before the double foul definition was modified. Until a few years ago the definition of a double foul was what is now the definition of a double personal foul. The double foul definition was split into double personal foul and double technical foul because too many officials were forgetting that contact fouls when the ball is live are personal fouls. The classic example of this was while A1 was dribbling the ball, A2 and B2 traded punches. There were officials that were charging these as flagrant technical fouls and awarding free throws to both teams. This was not correct. These fouls were flagrant personal fouls and because the fouls were personal foul this was a double foul and no free throws are shot for a double foul. The NFHS and NCAA decided to modify the definition and thus was born the double personal foul and the double technical foul. But the definition for a false double foul stayed the same. Before the double foul definition was modified, what is now defined as a double technical foul was considered a false double foul because the double foul definition was what is now the double personal foul definition. When the word double precedes the word foul in basketball it means that there are fouls committed by both teams during the time between the first foul or fouls were committed by either team and before the clock starts after the first foul or fouls were committed by either team. The fact that there are fouls by both teams means that the situation is either a double (personal or technical) foul situation or a false double foul situation. There cannot be an overall foul situation where there are fouls by both teams during the time frame defined in the false double foul definition that is not either a double foul or a false double foul situation. One must also remember that in a false double foul situation you can have any combination of the following types of fouls: a) double personal foul, b) simultaneous personal fouls, c) double technical foul, d) simultaneous technical fouls, e) multiple fouls, and/or d) false multiple fouls. |
Are you sure?
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Chuck |
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Re: Are you sure?
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The following rule references cover the situation I described: NFHS R4-S18: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: A1: An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made. A2: An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act toward an oppoenent that causes an oppoonent to retaliate by fighting. NFHS R4-S19-A1: A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead. NFHS R4-219-A4: A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act. Also, the definition of fighting is a relatively new addition to the rules book. |
Now, I'm not sure
Mark, interesting references. I can see why you'd say these were personal. But I looked up fighting in the NF rulebook, and I'm almost sure it was listed under player technicals in Rule 10. I'm going to have to go back and double check. Good references tho.
Chuck |
Chuck:
You are correct about NFHS R10-S3-A10, but the definition of a personal foul takes precedence in defining what is and is not a personal foul. Another point that should be remembered that may not be apparent is that you can have only one person charged with fighting. A player's actions can be to instigate a fight and if the victim does not retaliate then only one person is charged with fighting. It should be noted that because the NFHS does not have specific game suspension penalties for fighting like the NCAA, the definition for fighting really has no impact on the players who are charged with fighting but do have an impact on substitutes and other bench personal with regard to penalties during the game. |
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Chuck |
Re: Now, I'm not sure
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In this case the personal foul definition takes precedence over the R10-S3-A10, because there are only two types of fouls: personal and technical. Personal fouls are contact fouls when the ball is live (I have not forgotten the airborne shooter provision, I just want to keep it simple. All other fouls are technical fouls. |
If it is a FDF, Why do we use the AP?
If it is a FDF, Why do we use the AP?
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Anyway, what if this happens when A is in the bonus and B is not; and the Arrow favors "A"? Does "A" get 1+1 plus the ball? "B" gets NOTHING???. I've read all of Mark D's rules citations, and while I respect his (and others) opinion of the play, I still say its not a FDF. Obviously, they do not have a Rule 4 definition for "Simultaneous personal Fouls", which is what this is. Q#58 says the fouls happened simultaneously. An FDF is when a second foul occurs before the clock starts FOLLOWING (read AFTER -- or AT A DIFFERENT TIME than) the first. In an FDF, each foul carries its own penalty. Which of the 2 seperate fouls in Q #58 includes a throw-in as part of its penalty?.... And again, if "A" is in the bonus and has the arrow, and B is not, what does "B" get out of it? They're not even getting their throw-in (for A's foul). I'll quit posting on this now... Somebody make an addendum to 4.19 !!!! |
The foundation for simultaneous personal fouls being false double fouls.
It took some time but I have foundation for simultaneous personal fouls being double fouls.
The NFHS and NCAA Mens Rules Committee, for the 1980-81 season, added two center jump situations (the center jump has now been superceded by the alternating possession arrow). These two situations are simultaneous personal fouls and simultaneous technical fouls, and can be found in the 2001-02 rules books at: NFHS: R6-S3-A3g NCAA Mens and Womens: R6-S3-A1f. Quoting from the NFHS 1980-81 Comments on the above rule change: Addition of Two Center Jump Situations (R6-S2-A3, R6-S2-A4). The false double foul rule was revised over a three-year period. The rule is now clearly written and easy to understand and administer. The present coverage can result in two instances where a center jump is required following administration of free throws. If the fouls involved in the last penalty of a false double foul are simultaneous personal or simultaneous technical fouls by opponents (but not on each other) a center jump must follow the free throw administration. It would not be fair to allow play to continue as normal following a made or missed free throw at either end of the court. It would also have been true that with simultaneous personal fouls and neither team in the bonus, if there were no jump ball, one team would be awarded the ball out-of-bounds. The two additions clarify that a center jump is required in these two instances, so neither team is given an advantage. |
Good god man...WHY do you have a 1980-81 rule book???
You would think that this procedure would be included in, oh, I don't know, A CURRENT RULE BOOK.... NF: How about a Rule 4 Def. for a simultaneous personal foul, along with a definitive penalty admin? What I still don't agree with is the penalty admin with one team in the bonus and the other not. The NF as gone to great lengths with the other simultaneous/double situations to make sure that one team does not overly "profit" from these situations. If A is in bonus, and has the arrow, and B is not in the bonus, this situation could produce a 4 or 5 point swing (or more) for team A. I don't think they're being consistent on this one... I tip my hat to Mark on his perseverance... dk |
The penalty administration for simultaneous personal fouls is really quite equal.
First: Simultaneous personal fouls are a false double foul (I know, I know, but I am quite stubborn and correct on this one). Remember the word double means fouls by both teams. Second: Only in a double foul (and not a false) are free throw not shot, no matter what type of fouls are committed are committed by the two opponents (flagrant, intentional). In a false double foul the penalties for each foul must be carried out. The center jump (AP arrow nearest the spot of the foul) is just a way to put the ball into play after the penalty of the last foul. In all of the following plays the ball is live, Team A has the AP arrow when A1 fouls B1 at the same time B2 fouls A2. Play 1: Both fouls are common fouls and neither team is in the bonus. Team A gets the AP throw-in. Play 2: Both fouls are common fouls and Team A is in the bonus and Team B is not. A2 shoots free throws and then Team A gets the AP throw-in. Play 3: Both fouls are common fouls and Team B is in the bonus and Team A is not. B1 shoots free throws and then Team A gets the AP throw-in. Play 4: Both fouls are common fouls and and both teams are in the bonus. B1 shoots free throws, then A2 shoots free throws, and then Team A gets the AP throw-in. Play 5: A1's fouls is intentional or flagarant and B2's is common and neither team is in the bonus. B1 shoots free throws and then Team A gets the AP throw-in. I think you can see where I am going with these examples. Nothing would change if Team B had the AP arrow except that if both teams were going to shoot free throws you would have B1 shoot free throws last. |
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