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TopGun Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:14pm
Rules Question from a basketball coach...
 
Two things happened in a big game for us the other night. (I am a Head Boys Basketball Coach in Texas).

Scenario One:
We get a delay of game warning for touching the ball coming out of the net after we scored. Later on, we do it again and get the technical called on us.
Question One:
Is this delay of game indirect technical also a personal foul on the player who touched the ball?

Scenario Two:
We are up with little time on the clock, we get a steal, go in for a lay up and get an intentional foul called for a push from behind. Not flagrant, but intentional. We MADE the shot.
Question Two:
What is the correct course of action on this call?

Nevadaref Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun
Two things happened in a big game for us the other night. (I am a Head Boys Basketball Coach in Texas).

Scenario One:
We get a delay of game warning for touching the ball coming out of the net after we scored. Later on, we do it again and get the technical called on us.
Question One:
Is this delay of game indirect technical also a personal foul on the player who touched the ball?
If you are a HS boys coach using NFHS rules, then this is properly called a Team Technical foul. It is rule 10-1-5d. It is not charged to any particular individual. It does count as one team foul towards your total for the opponents reaching the bonus. It does not cause the head coach to lose the coaching box. The penalty is 2FTs and the awarding of the ball to the opponents at the division line opposite the table.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun
Scenario Two:
We are up with little time on the clock, we get a steal, go in for a lay up and get an intentional foul called for a push from behind. Not flagrant, but intentional. We MADE the shot.
Question Two:
What is the correct course of action on this call?
Again for NFHS rules:

The basket counts and the player who was fouled is awarded 2FTs with no one on the lane. (Yes, that is TWO FTs that are awarded even though the goal was scored.) Following the FTs the offended team is awarded the ball OOB at the nearest spot to the location of the foul.

The opponent is charged with one personal foul to the player who fouled and it counts as one team foul towards the opponent reaching the bonus.

Texas Aggie Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:27pm
1. (Oops! NR is right).

2. Assuming the official ruled the player fouled as in the act of shooting (and it sounds like that may not have happened), the shot should count, the player gets the 2 free throws, and your team gets the ball for a throw in nearest the spot of the foul. If the player was ruled to not have been in the act of shooting, its 2 shots and the ball.

So what happened?

TopGun Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:27pm
Thank you sir, and we in Texas do use the NFHS rule book.
The first one, they got correct, even though the opposing coach begged to differ.
The second one, they gave us THREE free throws and the ball. They seemed confused for some reason. Not sure if they were giving us the "and 1" and then the two free throws or what? Did not effect the outcome so no harm done.

TopGun Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:31pm
So it's NOT a foul that counts towards DQ correct?

Nevadaref Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
1. 1. It's not a Personal foul, but it does count toward the 5 total fouls for DQ purposes. Remember, the DQ rule for players is at 5 fouls (personal and technical), 2 technical fouls, or 1 flagrant (personal or technical) foul.

2. Assuming the official ruled the player fouled as in the act of shooting (and it sounds like that may not have happened), the shot should count, the player gets the 2 free throws, and your team gets the ball for a throw in nearest the spot of the foul. If the player was ruled to not have been in the act of shooting, its 2 shots and the ball.

So what happened?
TX, I'm sure you will check your book and see that your answer to #1 is not right.

Good point on #2. The scoring of the goal does depend upon the decision of the official as to whether the fouled player was in the act of shooting at the time of the foul.

Nevadaref Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun
O.K. now I'm confused again.
If it is an indirect technical and not counted towards the individual, how does it count toward his DQ? That is the concern of the other coach, that kid ended up with 4 fouls and they did NOT count the indirect towards his DQ.:confused:
Coach,
Trust me on this one. It is NOT an indirect technical foul at all. Under NFHS rules the only person on a team who can be charged with an indirect technical foul is the Head Coach. The offense you described is a TEAM technical foul. There is a nice chart on page 73 of the rules book, which you can consult.

Also, did the officials credit the basket on your play in addition to incorrectly giving you three FTs or did they merely give you the FTs? Plus did they make the kid who was fouled shoot the FTs or did they let you pick anyone?

Mark Padgett Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun
The second one, they gave us THREE free throws and the ball.
They should do this only if the shooter was intentionally fouled in the act of shooting a 3 pointer and it was unsuccessful.

TopGun Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:39pm
He was ruled in the act of shooting and they did count the bucket whixh was correct. We shot two free throws, they talked for a long time, and then we shot ANOTHER one, and then got the ball OOB!

I know we are all posting at the same time, so just to be clear... THE INDIRECT DOES NOT GO TOWARDS DQ, CORRECT!?

Sorry, I keep calling it indirect because that is what they were saying, not because I don't believe you! TEAM TECHNICAL!

Nevadaref Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun
He was ruled in the act of shooting and they did count the bucket whixh was correct. We shot two free throws, they talked for a long time, and then we shot ANOTHER one, and then got the ball OOB!

I know we are all posting at the same time, so just to be clear... THE INDIRECT DOES NOT GO TOWARDS DQ, CORRECT!?

Sorry, I keep calling it indirect because that is what they were saying, not because I don't believe you! TEAM TECHNICAL!
You are correct that this technical foul is NOT charged to that player in any way. It does not count as one of his five fouls towards disqualification. :) Also NOTHING is charged to the player who knocked the ball away earlier that resulted in the team warning for delay.

BTW where did the officials award your team the throw-in -- on the end line near the basket or out a midcourt?

TopGun Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:50pm
They awarded it Baseline Out of Bounds under our own goal on the side that the free throw was shot on. Correct I assume?

Adam Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:55pm
Sounds like they only screwed up in two ways. Terminology and giving your player an extra free throw. Did they make the fouled shooter take the free throws, or did they have you pick a shooter?

Nevadaref Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopGun
They awarded it Baseline Out of Bounds under our own goal on the side that the free throw was shot on. Correct I assume?
Yep, they got that part correct.

Johnny Ringo Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:54am
A Team Tech does count towards the team total for that half?

Nevadaref Tue Dec 26, 2006 01:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo
A Team Tech does count towards the team total for that half?
Yes, Johnny, in NFHS basketball ALL fouls except for indirect technical fouls charged to the Head Coach count towards the team total in the half.

bigdogrunnin Tue Dec 26, 2006 09:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
If you are a HS boys coach using NFHS rules, then this is properly called a Team Technical foul. It is rule 10-1-5d. It is not charged to any particular individual. It does count as one team foul towards your total for the opponents reaching the bonus. It does not cause the head coach to lose the coaching box. The penalty is 2FTs and the awarding of the ball to the opponents at the division line opposite the table.



Again for NFHS rules:

The basket counts and the player who was fouled is awarded 2FTs with no one on the lane. (Yes, that is TWO FTs that are awarded even though the goal was scored.) Following the FTs the offended team is awarded the ball OOB at the nearest spot to the location of the foul.

The opponent is charged with one personal foul to the player who fouled and it counts as one team foul towards the opponent reaching the bonus.
Thanks Nevada. I know TOO MANY officials who still get both of these wrong. Of course, I have been on the wrong end of each as well.

Adam Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:34am
I'll add only one more thing. On the delay technicals; if B1 reaches across the boundary plane during a throwin and the team has already been warned, it's a Team Tech that only counts towards the team's foul count (but not the player's). If B1 reaches across and slaps the ball, the Tech is charged directly to the player.

TopGun Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:59am
No, I did not get to pick the shooter. The player who was fouled shot both shots. Was that right?

BktBallRef Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:26am
Yes, it was.

Mark Dexter Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Yes, Johnny, in NFHS basketball ALL fouls except for indirect technical fouls charged to the Head Coach count towards the team total in the half.
Nevada is right for 99% of all situations. Not to confuse the coach, but rulebook quiz time. What other foul or fouls (besides an indirect T charged to the coach) do not count towards the bonus?

Mark Padgett Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
Nevada is right for 99% of all situations. Not to confuse the coach, but rulebook quiz time. What other foul or fouls (besides an indirect T charged to the coach) do not count towards the bonus?
Fouls occurring after the 10th team foul. :D

Mark Dexter Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
Fouls occurring after the 10th team foul. :D
Boy - Padgett being off his meds saved me from a major mea culpa. I'm glad I went back and read the rulebook on this one.

Texas Aggie Tue Dec 26, 2006 02:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
TX, I'm sure you will check your book and see that your answer to #1 is not right.
As you can see, I quickly changed it, however, in 10.3.6, it is a player (not team) T to "delay the game by acts such as...", so an official could rule that a player himself is delaying the game. I'm not saying you should look for this, but be aware that in certain situations, this might be appropriate under similar circumstances as the facts listed. Then, once it is a player T, it does count toward the 5 for that player.

If he's on his way back down court and just flicks the ball toward the baseline, that still fits under section 1.

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 26, 2006 02:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
As you can see, I quickly changed it, however, in 10.3.6, it is a player (not team) T to "delay the game by acts such as...", so an official could rule that a player himself is delaying the game. I'm not saying you should look for this, but be aware that in certain situations, this might be appropriate under similar circumstances as the facts listed. Then, once it is a player T, it does count toward the 5 for that player.

If he's on his way back down court and just flicks the ball toward the baseline, that still fits under section 1.
The NFHS has already looked into it. After they did, they issued case book play 10.1.5SitD. That states that an official should call a team technical foul, not a player technical foul.

Texas Aggie Tue Dec 26, 2006 02:55pm
The casebook play you reference deals with that one and only that one play that's listed. What if a player grabs the ball, holds it, then when his team is in position, passes it to the official? Then does it again?

All I'm saying is to be aware of section 3 article 6 and use your judgment as to whether that section applies to a given situation better than article 1.

Mark Padgett Tue Dec 26, 2006 03:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
The casebook play you reference deals with that one and only that one play that's listed. What if a player grabs the ball, holds it, then when his team is in position, passes it to the official? Then does it again?

All I'm saying is to be aware of section 3 article 6 and use your judgment as to whether that section applies to a given situation better than article 1.
I think the rules support calling an unsportsmanlike technical on a player if you feel his/her actions were truly egregious. This seems like one of those calls that is at your discretion.

Old School Tue Dec 26, 2006 04:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
Nevada is right for 99% of all situations. Not to confuse the coach, but rulebook quiz time. What other foul or fouls (besides an indirect T charged to the coach) do not count towards the bonus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
Fouls occurring after the 10th team foul. :D
Good one! Made me laugh out loud...!!! I vote this one the best response today!

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 26, 2006 07:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
The casebook play you reference deals with that one and only that one play that's listed. What if a player grabs the ball, holds it, then when his team is in position, passes it to the official? Then does it again?

All I'm saying is to be aware of section 3 article 6 and use your judgment as to whether that section applies to a given situation better than article 1.
That case book play deals with someone delaying a throw-in after a made basket. It tells you to call a team technical foul if someone does interfere and delay the throw-in.

Why try to find something else to apply when he NFHS is already telling us what to do?:confused:

Texas Aggie Tue Dec 26, 2006 09:33pm
They are NOT telling us what to do in the situation I described. The casebook says, "A3 slaps the ball away..." That's different from what I described.

What is the purpose of Rule 10.3.6A?

Nevadaref Wed Dec 27, 2006 04:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
What is the purpose of Rule 10-3-6a
(Rules book citations use hyphens, case book citations use dots.)

10-3-6a is there to cover situations in which a player delays the game, but it is not one of the four situations for which a team warning is authorized.

Now if you wish an example of such a situation...
A1 loses the ball OOB in his backcourt against light pressure. B1 attempts to get the ball back into play quickly as he sees that his teammates reacted quickly to the turnover and have run down the court leaving their opponents far behind in the new backcourt. B1 has fetched the ball and is about to hand it to the official when A1 recognizes his team's disadvantage and therefore jumps in front of B1 and prevents him from getting the ball to the official.

Nevadaref Wed Dec 27, 2006 04:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
Nevada is right for 99% of all situations. Not to confuse the coach, but rulebook quiz time. What other foul or fouls (besides an indirect T charged to the coach) do not count towards the bonus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
Fouls occurring after the 10th team foul. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
Boy - Padgett being off his meds saved me from a major mea culpa. I'm glad I went back and read the rulebook on this one.

I can't think of any. What did you have in mind? :confused:

Mark Dexter Wed Dec 27, 2006 09:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I can't think of any. What did you have in mind? :confused:
I was (mistakenly) thinking of the situation where several substitutes leave the bench while a fight is taking place, but they don't participate. Each substitute is charged with a flagrant technical, but the coach is only charged with 1 indirect technical foul. I assumed that the team also recieved only 1 foul towards the bonus.


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