Tennessee/Texas 5sec. call
 

On a throw in situation should the official blow his whistle on the hand signal of the 5th sec. or just after?

What difference does it make? Saw the play, it was a great call.
To answer your question, the violation occurs as soon as the count hits 5; not shortly after.

It does not make any difference. The ball is already dead before the whistle is blown anyway.

Peace

More Than
 

As others have said when the whistle is blown doesn't matter, the ball becomes dead when the violation occurs. However, strictly speaking you are right that the violation occurs just after the 5th second is consumed since the rules states "more than." Thus the official should not be blowing the whistle right at the count of five, since a violation hasn't yet been committed.

From the 2006-07 NCAA rulesbook:

Rule 6

Section 5. Dead Ball

Art. 1.

...

g. Any floor violation (Rules 9-3 through 9-13) occurs, there is basket
interference or goaltending (Rule 9-16) or there is a free-throw
violation by the free-thrower’s team (Rule 9-1).

Rule 9

Section 5. Throw-in

Art. 1.

The thrower-in shall not:
...

d. Consume more than five seconds from the time the throw-in starts
until the ball is released.

Saw the play, he made the right call, and it was a GREAT call! I don't know of many officials who would have made that call, and wrong though it is, a lot would have reset their count when the new thrower stepped out of bounds. I am a BIG U. of TEXAS fan, and it was a good game (even though Texas' youth and inexperience showed up with 15 minutes to go in the second half). I thought the officials did a good job.

For those of us who didn't see the game could you describe what took place on this play and when in the game it occurred?
Thanks.

I'm not sure which play bigdogrunnin is talking about, but with Tennessee had just scored on the huge three (about 30 feet away) to take a one point lead. Texas brought the ball to half court and called time-out. On the ensuing throw-in, TN played outstanding defense and TX couldn't get the ball in. You can see the official's count, and right after he hits 5, TX player attempts to call time-out; too late. The official raises his hand and extends his fingers (presumably with a whistle blowing, but you can't hear it.)

The play I was talking about was after a made basket by Tennessee later in the second half. Texas player is going to inbound the ball and has it in his hands. Official starts count. The Texas player decides he isn't going to inbound the ball and places is back on the floor, the official is at two in his 5-second count. A second Texas player comes and grabs the ball, and the official is at 3. 4. 5. TWEET! 5-second violation on the throw in.

What I meant, is I know a lot of officials that will reset their 5-second count when the second player obtains the ball. I thought the official did a great job in this instance. Hope that helps.

I missed that one. The announcers made a comment that made me think maybe they'd already done it once earlier; now it makes sense. You're right that a lot of newer refs would have restarted their count; but a college ref should know better, especially at D1. The one I saw was with about 18 seconds left in regulation.

I'd like to hear people's opinion on the game tying basket by Texas with 1 second left in regulation. Looked like a PC foul to me. (The official had a no call).

I thought the ball was released before contact. Even with a foul, the basket would have counted. I also thought maybe the defender was flopping before contact, but I didn't have a good angle. :)

I've always used the just after, but the count is in my head and not necessary my arm movement. When I reach five in my head and the arm comes back to my chest (5-1/2), at that point, I determine where the ball is. If it's still in the hand at that precise moment, I got a 5 second violation, even if the thrower is in the process of releasing it. The act of me checking and then deciding I got a violation, then put air in the whistle, a split-second or a second could have expired, and the thrower could have passed the ball in. Guess what, it was in her hands at the time I hit 5 and checked, violation! Fans didn't like my call, oh well!

I'm not sure if this was the same game I saw, but I think it was. I think the defender may have been too deep in the lane. Even thought it's not written, they don't want you standing in the lane taking a charge, there is a point where you can be too deep, and it's either a block or a no-call.

With that being said, at that point in the game, good no call. The offensive player did not try to drive thru his shot, he pulled up for the jumper, incidental contact, again, good no-call. The referees let the players decide. Good game to watch!

Happy Holidays

I doubt it had anything to do with being too deep in the lane. both players were 10 feet away from the hoop. I still thought it was a good call.

Looked like a charge from the camera angle I saw. That said, Snaqwells was right - once the ball is released in NCAA-M, you can't have a player control foul. Had the foul been called, the shot would have counted, and the fouled player would have shot free throws (I'm pretty sure TN was in the double bonus by that point).

Sorry, not right.
2-7-9 . . . Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in (7-6), free-throw (8-4; 9-1-3), backcourt (9-8) and closely-guarded (9-10) rules.

This is important because of all the video taping of games these days. When a coach sends a copy of the tape to the league office of you swinging your arm only four times, but calling a five second violation, you're in trouble. When a coach sends one that shows you swinging your arm six times, but still NOT calling a five second violation, you're screwed!

Your arm swings are your official count.

Actually, I swung my arms 5 times and when it came back to my chest to go out for 6, is when I checked for violation. Also, keep in mind that I'm not just standing right there looking at the thrower. I'm also watching for illegal contact by the defense, illegal screens that are right in front of me.

I don't know if I agree that your arm count takes presidence. My count is always in my head, and the reason is such. I give the ball to the thrower-in, and I accidently drop my whistle. I got one arm up to hold the clock, and the other arm needs to retrieve the whistle and put it back in my mouth, during this time, the count remains in my head even though I may have missed a couple of seconds with my arm movement and consequently only show 3 arm movements for the violation. In counting 10 seconds, sometimes I forget to start the count, and start my count at 2 or 3, however much time I think has elapse from the time the ball was put in play to now. I sync my cadence with the clock, really useful with a shot clock because if I'm at 5, and the shot clock shows 30, I know I'm in sync with the time cadence.

I would tend to agree with NR. Your count and arm swings should always be coordinated. If you start your arm swing late, then you start your count late. Coaches, the good ones anyway, are looking at you and talking to their players. If you are counting in your head, but do not give a VISIBLE count as well, you put the team and that player at a disadvantage. And yes, I understand that by starting your count late that you put the other team at disadvantage as well, but I would rather have a visible advantage for a team than an invisible disadvantage. (does that make sense?)

As for having a lot of other things to do . . . well, every official on the floor has a lot of stuff to do and a lot of things to worry about. That is why we learn to "multi-task."

So you give them 5 1/2 seconds? What's the rule say again?
Let me guess, this happened in a 5th grade girls' game?

I tend to agree with you too, but refereeing is not an exact science. I gave you one example where I may not have started my count exactly at the time the player receives the ball, backcourt to frontcourt. Players dribbling up the court, no pressure and you're not even counting with your arms b/c he's almost over the half court line. All of a sudden he loses control of the ball, stops his dribble, or the defense pops up and traps the ball. Now, if I haven't shown a count, I would say we are at about 3 or 4 seconds and start my count from there, instead of starting my backcourt count over at zero b/c I didn't start a backcourt count with my arms. I don't think that's right either.

Another example: Shot clock reads 23 and my hand count is 9, or shot clock reads 27 and my hand count is 10. Am I not going to call a violation because my count doesn't match the shot clock? In as much as possible I agree that the arm count should match the invisible count, but it is not an absolute. Hopefully, this type of thing won't determine the outcome of a game, if called, but continued mismatch of arm and invisible count, could show some inconsistency in officiating mechanics.

Is this really what coaches and evaluators look at? If they were concerned about whether the violation, or lack of one, was proper, wouldn't they time the play to check?

They might. But the official does not have the benefit of the evaluator's stopwatch. He/she only has the physical count. Being off in the speed of your count is not desireable, but is understandable. Ignoring your own count is indefensible.

Or starting it late, or not having one, or.... Good points.

That is why an official should ALWAYS show their count, even if they "start" their count "a little late," or they don't think the count is going to have an impact. No way to fudge the outcome. It doesn't matter if the ball handler is walking up the floor uncontested, I show my BC count. OOB throw-in, same thing. I ALWAYS show my count, and when I am evaluating other officials, I tell them the same thing. The VISIBLE count is there for a reason, and we need to use effectively and efficiently, every time.

As for the shot clock (or game clock), if your count is FAST, adjust the speed of your count from that point forward to accomodate the discrepancy. EVERY evaluator and assignor I have ever had has told me, it is always a good idea to be "a little" slow on your counts. It you start a count "a little" late, then you are already slow, and continue from there. JMO

Agree, this should always be done, and 99.9% of the time I do it. But I am just being real when I say, sometimes, maybe the .01% of the time, I either forget, concentrating on something else at the time, lost concentration because of a call I think I just blew, or even a rotational switch and primary area has changed, and owe, I should be counting too.

However, I will also admit that I have never heard of a review of a 5 second call, or an evaluator looking at a tape to determine if it was a correct 5 second call violation based on the referee arm strokes. Never heard of that and I've never heard of a game coming down to a backcourt or 5 second throw in call violation. If the coach is worried about the fact the referee only showed 4 strokes of the arm and called a 5 second violation, he/she should probably be officiating and not coaching, and guaranteed, this coach is going to get out coached.

An assigner - not evaluator - will look at it when they receive a tape from a coach who thinks he/she got screwed.

Old school,

You are correct. WE ALL forget or get caught up with other aspects of our duties at different times. I am sure I have implied that I am perfect when it comes to counts, but believe, I am NOT. I guess I should say, "an official should ALWAYS try . . ."

As for games coming down to 5-second counts, or BC counts. I have had at least 4-5 in the past 2 years come down to just that. And, when a coach is pressing looking for that call, or the offensive coach is checking the count to see if a TO needs to be called, I want to be "johnny-on-the-spot!"

As for coaches calling assignors or sending in tapes . . . I had a coach do that to one of my partners last season. He called our assignor and scratched the official because he wasn't consistently visible on his counts, and the coach didn't like it. It happened in a game that wasn't close (10-12 points), and he won, but I guess he had a point to make. Just thought I would share.

Thanks for sharing, I would have never guessed that. So what I have learned is the coaches, or at least the informed coaches are watching your arm movements to determine count. I have always kept 2 counts. One in my head and the external arm movement, but they weren't always in sync. The one in my head is the one that I go by, but now I will make a bigger effort to stay in sync with my arm movement, based on this post/tread. I hope the assigner got back with the official so that he can at least learn. Too often, you don't get asked back to a school or a tournament and never know the reason why. I do not like that, but there's not a lot we can do about it.