Time out positions - two man crew
 

Please verify the correct mechanic for a (two-man crew) time out.I am an IAABO referee.

In a two-man crew, the administering official stays at the throw-in spot and the other official stands on the division (half-court line) either close to the opposite side of the court (full/60) or close to the table (30).

NFHS Official's Manual:

For 30-sec, each official goes to top of each key
For full, each official goes to the block opposite the benches.

For two man crews, no official stands at the throw in spot.

Larry - for IAABO mechanics, you're right. The non-inbounds spot official should be right at the edge of the center restraining circle, either close to the table or close to the opposite side of the court.

This is a mechanics difference between IAABO and NFHS. Chuck made me aware of this a few years ago. Just FYI.

Really? Here, we apparently do the NFHS version, even though we're IAABO. Since I'm still feeling my way around, I've just watched to see how things are done. I didn't realize there was a difference between IAABO and NFHS on this.

I think IAABO has it right, BTW. This is the old NFHS mechanic, if I remember correctly.

I'm always proactive in getting this information to an assistant during a timeout, but it wold be a lot easier to simply put an official there and let the other official notify the benches of the first horn, etc.

Agree. It never fails...you can point to the spot of the throw-in for half of the timeout and as soon as you don't, that's when they ask "where you gonna take it in". GRR

Lemme throw this out there, Rich, being a tad grumpy this a.m.........as usual.

Why don't we go back to the <b>real</b> old mechanic? Use the <b>warning</b> horns for what they're damnwell supposed to be ----> a <b>warning</b> horn. All the current mechanic is doing is shifting the onus onto the officials and away from where it should be-the benches. They can hear the horns; all they do now is ignore them until us babysitters go and ask them if they feel like playing yet. Everybody, and I mean everybody, ignores the first horn. And then if you do follow the resuming-play procedure, they'll whine at you, saying that they didn't hear your warning. Every TO now turns out to be 10-15 seconds longer than what they should be. Way back, we used to whistle and say "Let's go" at the first horn, and then whistle at the second horn, give 'em a few(2-3) seconds to get moving, and if they didn't start out, we'd either put the ball down or hand it to the thrower- depending on which team felt like ignoring us. Of course, if they did move we'd give them a little time to get into position. The coaches <b>knew</b> that we were gonna do this, so they didn't try to pretend that we don't exist- like they do now.

The rule book says that at the first warning horn "the players shall prepare to be ready to resume play". Somehow, over the passage of time, this requirement has shifted to the final horn instead and we allow it.

Thoughts anybody?

Gee,
 

"Thoughts anybody?"

Thanks for the invite! I worked high school and college basketball for 20 years and we did it EXACTLY as JR has noted . . .

It worked well . . . so the NFHS dropped it.

Regards,

Got my vote JR!

I agree with Tim C. - IMHO it wasn't broke, so why in the blazes did NFHS decide to "fix it".

I will say this, timeouts are not extended around here like they were back in Iowa. It is a bigger deal. Last week, on the 2nd horn, visiting team started coming out. I gave them extra time because they were moving. Home coach had a minor fit at half time and told me the ball should have been put down. Go figure.

We are not going to put the ball in play on the 1st horn anyway. Even if the teams are out there and ready to play, the ball doesn't go back into play until the 2nd horn. So officially, the timeout is not over until the 2nd horn.

Actually JR, at a girls 5 grade game many years ago, I did just this. Put the ball in play while the other team was still in the huddle and the other team scored and they won by one point. The coach was so mad at me, and the look he gave me was like I was cheating. So I decided to not be a hard-liner on this subject and do a little preventive officiating, and just go over there and get them out of the TO.

Another thing that really helps me in this situation, is I always tell the coaches at the pregame meeting, get your guys up and begin to bring the huddle to an end at the first horn, so by the 2nd, you are done. In no way, will I just lay the ball down anymore because of what happened in the little league girls game. However, by mentioning it in the pregame, things do run a little smoother in my games.

There's another thing too, on this mechanic that I think is often overlooked. Do not instruct the timer to start the 30 second clock until all the players are in the huddle, that way the teams get the full 30 seconds for the TO.

Last thought on this, if I have something to communicate with my partner/s. Then, indirectly, they get more time as we discuss our situation, for instance, last second shot, horn not that loud, etc., etc.

So much is wrong with this post, I'll only address the most glaring error by quoting my friend rulebook again.

Pretty much says it all, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Televised NCAA game - sounds good.
Any other college/HS game - I don't think so. I don't want my games to be 5 hours long unless they have to be.

I fail to see the glaring error. A timeout shall not exceed one minute. At no place does it say a full timeout is 45 seconds. A warning signal is sounded for the teams to prepare to be ready for play is sounded at 45 seconds. That does not say to me that the timeout is over. That means to me that a team still has 15 seconds to discuss stragety to their players.

Length of timeouts is not a problem in my games, and I have never had a game go 5 hours. If a game goes longer than it normallly should, it is not because of the amount of time spent in the TO's. It is because of other factors like the referee's calling 60 fouls total in the game, or the JV game for the same reason going longer than it should have.

You ever wonder why there's not an official warning in the rulebook for the team taking too much time coming out of the timeout? I think it would be helpful and it gets the point across without you having to burn one of the teams to do so. The rules suggest we put the ball in play while the one team is not ready. That goes against the ethics of fair play which we are there to ensure, imo.

I hate to be picky word parser, but the rulebook says the teams only need prepare to be ready to play at 45 seconds. It doesn't mean that the second that warning horn goes that they have to be out of the huddle. I can interpret that phrase in a number of different ways.

I also will not start a timeout period until both teams are at the benches and I instruct the timer to wait until I start the clock on a timeout. That sometimes takes a few seconds. So be it.

A varsity hoops game I work is usually over within 70 to 75 minutes, including halftime. What's the rush? And it's true, unnecessary fouls and game interruptors cause way more delay than allowing an extra couple of seconds during timeouts.

I have never put the ball down in a varsity game. It would take an awful lot for me to do so.

You said, "Even if the teams are out there and ready to play, the ball doesn't go back into play until the 2nd horn." This is the glaring error. It goes against the rule I quoted for you.

Nope. There's no warning because there's the RPP to take care of it. It does the trick.

No, the rules tell you to put the ball in play when one or both teams don't break the huddle at 60 seconds. If one team is ready, and the other is not, then the team that is still in the huddle is breaking the rules to get extra coaching (or rest) time.
If you don't like the rules as written, perhaps your reffing the wrong.... Wait, never mind.

Rich, the rule book states that the timeout shall not exceed 60 seconds. Not sure how many ways there are to interpret that phrase.
I think this is standard practice. No one is saying to do otherwise. In fact, it's the single agreeable thing Old School has written.

I agree, if both teams are ready to go before the 2nd horn, we can start. But, if the team that called the timeout is not ready to go, then we wait for the 2nd horn.

As a matter of fact, I don't like this rule. In order for this not to happen, I go into the huddle and break it up, or I ask the coach at that point in time, do you want another timeout? If not, let's get them out. I have had to do this in my college games as well. Most of my partners that I work with, will just wait for them to break the huddle. I am a little more proactive because I don't want to use that RPP. I think it's good game management to do this.

Close. Both teams have to be ready to go. At least you read part of the rule I posted. At least you can change your opinion when confronted with a rule. It's a start.

The thing is, I don't really give a rip about the written rule. I care more about what the other officials in this area practice. I've lived in six states since 1994 (but this is my 5th year in WI) and being consistent among the officials is the most important thing, to me.

I won't put it down unless a team is just being defiant. I'll wait a few more seconds, even if they only break the huddle on the second horn and have to be called out. In 20 years of officiating in six states, this has not been a big deal for me. No team has abused this to the point where I felt compelled to do anything drastic.

Rich, I agree with you. It's about consistency among an area's officials. For me, if the team is breaking on the 2nd horn, I'm good. I had a coach ask me "politely" at half-time why I didn't put the ball down recently. This is my 2nd state, and since I'm new to the area, I'm going to check with the assignor to see if the situation would have warranted RPP in his opinion. In the end, that's what matters. :)

How about sub-varsity? I'll gladly put the ball in play to team A if they are waiting once the 2nd buzzer has sounded [of course extend team B a few seconds, but in no way feel obligated to let them set up their defense]... or put the ball on the floor if team B is the throw-in team. I'm finding that without added hussle during free throws, substitutions and throw-ins, the sub-varsity games will go appreciably slower.

I can see where by the time they get to Varsity they should know better than to abuse the timeout by consistently lingering but the teams learn that lesson through stricter administration of sub-varsity games. I make a habit of stressing to the coaches before the game that the second buzzer indicates when the ball should be put into play - the first buzzer is their warning to break up the timeout.

I disagree with this. Maybe I feel this way because I cannot officiate with everyone in a single association. You are never going to have total consistency amongst all officials. It just is not going to happen. Many veterans are going to be able to do things a rookie cannot and will not be able to do. All I can control is what I do that night. Having said all of that I just care that the teams are coming out of the huddle around the second horn rather them being completely ready as some have stated in earlier threads. I really do not want to use the RPP at all if I can avoid it. It should be used as a complete last resort when other methods have failed. I would rather do it early than later in a game.

Peace

It's called sampling and observing. You don't have to officiate with everyone to see what's normal in your area. Adam can get around that by calling a central assignor -- in my area(s), we don't have such a thing.

I work about 10-12 Illinois boys varsity games a year. Do I have to know how all the officials handle this situation to know the standard practice? BTW, I work the same way in IL as I do in WI and I've had no complaints.

If one coach flips cause we don't put the ball on the floor when the other team's late, I need to investigate whether that's expected.

I take the opposite approach. I am quick to put the ball down when a team delays. I've never had to do it a second time. :)

There is a statement in the officials manual about throw-ins saying that the throwing team should make a player available and that no delay should be allowed before placing the ball at the disposal and starting the five-second count.

I did not say you had to work with everyone at all. I said that if you do what works for you, they will adjust. If the rules are clear what to do, and then you have more cover if you follow the rules. I work in many conferences and not every assignor agrees on what to do and how to do things. Some assignors are stickler for some rules and others are much more lax on others.

I work all over northern Illinois from the city of Chicago to south of the Quad Cities. Just make a call and the coaches will adjust (at least the good ones will). I do not drastically change what I do to accommodate every coach and their concerns.

I agree the more you know it will make it easier on you as an official. But I work too many places to agonize over those things. I likely passed 20 schools or more to get to the particular school I am working any given night.

Peace

Does every post you make quote a rulebook or manual passage? Not all the answers are in there. Many things are, in my experience, regional in nature.

Edited to add: I don't mean this as harsh as it sounds -- I think Adam's post below is the perfect response.

Before I start putting the ball down on borderline delay (the team is just coming out of their huddle at the 2nd horn rather than being ready to play,) I need to make sure my assignor is going to back me. I also need to make sure my partner is going to be consistent enough to do it again later, or to the other team, if the situation is similar enough.

No offense taken, Rich. I do make a sincere effort to follow the rules that the NFHS has written. I don't believe that it is a good idea for individual officials to capriciously toss them aside and administer the game however they wish.

As for Adam's thoughts, I know that I have backing. Afterall, AAR is my association president. :)

What's the big deal about putting the ball down?

I did it in my 1st or 2nd JuCo game of the season. Team A was ignoring my partner's 1st & 2nd horn warnings so he looked at me and nodded for me to put the ball down. As soon as the team broke the huddle I hit my whistle and put the ball on the floor. They hustled to the throw-in spot and got the ball in before I reached '5'. Didn't have that problem the rest of the game.

Had a BV where the defensive team (Team B) was late getting out of huddle. As soon as they broke their huddle I hit my whistle and gave ball to A1 for throw-in. Team B ending up committing a shooting foul. While administering the 1st free throw I heard Coach B yelling. I thought he was yelling at me. But he wasn't, he was yelling at one of his players who didn't hustle to get to his man after breaking the huddle.

We need to set the tone for time-outs, not the coaches.

What had me thinking along those lines is that in a rules discussion with my new association, they stressed consensus on a given application. Specifically, they were talking about the delay for free-throw huddles and how tight we were going to run that. Consistency and consensus were the keys, at least to this group.

I do not work with people in just one association or area. It is very hard to work with the same people that feel the same way that I do or the next guy does. I just officiate my game and if I make a call I would hope that we are on the same page. If not, I will not lose any sleep.

Peace

Since its a point of emphasis this year to make sure the timeouts aren't extended, I always mention this if I am the R at the coaches' meetings. Something along the lines of, "Coach, its a point of emphasis this year that the teams are breaking the huddle on the second horn. Please wrap things up at the warning horn."

Also, we always come to the huddles and say "first horn <color>". Most officials stay there holding one finger in the air until the huddle breaks.

The time out mechanic is one rule I wish the NFHS would change. I just think its cleaner for the administering official to stay at the spot of the throw-in. But until they change it, I'll stand at the block or the top of the circle.

Maybe in your area. The guys I work with say "first horn" and then walk away as they are supposed to according to the officials manual on page 45: "The officials should then move toward their proper positions to resume play."

Apparently, we do a lot of things differently than everyone else in Northern Ohio.

I was meaning to ask you about this. I had a buddy work a tourney with some folks from Western CO recently and he noted that the free throw huddle thing was a big deal for them.

Getting into the Rich/Jeff debate, I suppose it depends quite a bit on how things are run in your area. Out here, I get (almost) all of my games from my association and from a single assigner. It should be easy for us to have consensus and consistency within the area that we serve.

But if you work for multiple conferences and belong to many associations and those associations don't have a way of putting any teeth into enforcing how they want things done because they don't control the assigning, then getting consensus would pretty impossible, and therefore to some degree irrelevant.

And if you work in an area where the ADs do all the assigning and crews are independent, I can see how getting consensus/consistency would be a rather informal, but important process.

Different systems; different priorities; different realities.

While we may not keep the single finger flying the whole time, here we're asked here to stay with the huddle and get the teams out at the second horn. I've done it both ways, and this way works better. Besides, it gives me something productive to do while I'm busy being impatient because the coaches need babysitting.

That's funny. We were discussing this in the 2nd meeting of the year, and the concensus seemed to be to leave it alone if the players weren't costing the game any time. If, by the time I have the ball ready to bounce, the players are almost back to their spots; I don't generally do or say anything. I had an AAU game, though, where it was getting out of hand. I just stopped the girls and told them not to huddle. Next time, I saw one of the girls on the block do a high-five motion from her spot to the shooter (neither player left her spot). I smiled and thanked her. :)

You're right about the different priorities. Here, I get all my games from my assignor (unless I want to do city league stuff), so I need to ensure I'm doing things the way they want them done. My first year here, I'm watching and learning. Am I calling too many travels? Am I calling the contact too tight? Too loose? Finally, am I watching the right refs to see how they want things done?

This is not a big deal at all where I live. I have never known anyone to suggest that they need to call a timeout in this manner. Most conference assignors where I live are not drastically different from each other. Really the expectations of the leagues come more from the coaches and administration than the actual assignors themselves. Actually often the top officials work in many conferences and they do not change that drastically because they work for different people if at all. And where I live associations are more about where people live and where they want to attend meetings.

Peace

My assignor has stated in no uncertain terms that he never wants to see us put the ball down. We are to get into to huddles and get them moving.

Also, the area supervisor has us stand at the throw-in spot.

:rolleyes: