What's the rule - A technical or not??
 

Greetings all - this is my first post. What is the rule for a player continuing to play once over the 5 personal foul limit? I was coaching this weekend against a team that had a girl who had five fouls - the official score book (home team) said it was only four. Later, the girl got another foul - then it was realized that she actually had six fouls - which was agreed by the official scorer. What happens here? Should this be a technical foul? I know that playing a disqualified player is a direct technical against the coach, but she hadn't been disqualified yet - although she should have been. I thought it should have been a technical - but not sure here... just looking for an answer in case something like this happens again.

Thanks.

Anthony
E. Russell Hicks Lady Rebels

Since no one from the table notified the officials it is as she had 4 fouls, even though she had 5 then 6. What happened to your score keeper? Usually there are visiting & home books, and since no one let the officials know the player had 5 fouls nothing can be done. It is a clerical error, correct it as soon as it is discovered.

The penalty is for playing after being DQ'ed.

No. A technical foul should not have been called.

Our scorekeeper and I brought it to the attention of the REFs, but they said that since there was a dicrepency in the books, that the official book (home) was what they would go by (fair enough, mistakes happen). But then, when the 5th / 6th foul was picked up, somehow, the official book realized something, and notified the official that it was actually 6 fouls.

In the heat of the game, I thought it should be a T (of course I did), then thinking about it, I thought probably not.... But, your comment about a clerical error made me think back - what about an incorrect number in the book - that's a clerical error - but results in an Administrative T... (go easy on me guys - I'm not a REF, I'm a coach :D these aren't the easiest rules to interpret - even if you do know the rules - at least not for me )

Coach, have your scorekeeper sit with the official scorekeeper and you will never have this problem again. This is a great question and there were some heated discussions about how to handle this type of thing related to excessive timeouts in the last 2 or 3 weeks. Team A takes an excessive timeout, is assessed a T but afterwards it's discovered that team A did have a timeout remaining afterall.

Some kind soul will find it & post a link.

An incorrect number in the book is a clerical error *only* if you can show that you supplied the correct number prior to the 10 minute pre-game mark. If you can't do this then it's not a clerical error.

The wrong number in the book happend before the game not during the game. You had plenty of time to get the names & numbers correct. Clerical errors during the game are different a little more going on and a lot less time.

P.S. Scorebooks are to be kept in INK to help with no unsporting beheavior.

Thanks all...

I appreciate the info...

Anthony

The old rules interpreter in Maryland used to meet with the coaches and give them a test for reasons like this. It can be sort of a humbling experience when you are a coach and fail a test about the rules. Of course, by the time the season started the coaches were their usual selves. :(

Rule-2 Section-10 Article-4 Correctable error Awarding of unmerited free throw(s) and activity during it execpt for unsporting, flagrant, intentional or technical fouls shall be canceled

Just to add, she's not disqualified until the refs tell the coach. So, by rule, you can't call them for a T until she plays after the coach has been notified.
I don't T clerical errors. If you supplied correct information to the bench and they screw it up in the transfer, I'll let it go. If you just failed to give them all the players' numbers or didn't note the starters; that's not a clerical error.

And, coach, I also want to say that I appreciate your asking the question as an honest question, and not just to try to "get back" at a ref for something. Some coaches come here legitimately to ask for information, like you did. But often, they're just in the mood for "fashing" and it gets unpleasant. With your attitude, you'll always be welcome here.

Uh-oh...now you've done it :)

I agree, some don't :shrug:

FYI, a true clerical error (i.e., where the scorer messes up) is not penalized. If you submitted your roster correctly, and the scorer accidentally wrote in 23 as 32, there (by rule) is no penalty to you.

Just wondering, is this your rule or a state/conference guideline? I've been doing the book for 10 years now and have ALWAYS used pencil (this from a guy who does his crossword puzzle in ink).

Thank you, I appreciate the comment. I hate not knowing a rule - even worse, thinking I know it and don't have it write. So, let me ask one more question - occured in the same game...

Ball is being inbounded and one of my players breaks the plane and touches the ball before it enter the court... first violation. She was given a "T" foul. I asked the ref about a warning - my understanding of the rule was that the first violation was a warning, and subsequent violations would be a "T". The ruling the ref gave me was that the warning is for breaking the plane, but contact with the ball is an automatic "T"...

Thanks.

If she just breaks the plane, then it is only a warning (if it is the first one). If she makes contact with the ball it is an automatic T and it counts as a first warning also in case there is another boundary plane violation.

Again...thanks to all...:)

Don't forget - with the new rule in place this season, it also counts as the warning for any of the four delay situations.

Now the ruling is slightly different if the Thrower had released the ball. Upon release, the defender is allowed to break the boundary plane and touch the ball without violating ANY rule.
Violation and fouls (as described) only apply if the thrower still has possession/control of the ball.

Just for completeness sake, there's one more aspect you should know. It the defender breaks the plane and fouls the thrower, it's an automatic intentional foul.

I want to go back to the original question for a sec:

In FIBA (wich is international and european rules) this would be a bench technical to the coach (when a player commits his sixth foul the coach gets it insted).

Let me get this straight. In international competition, if the official book only has four fouls for a player, and that player is allowed to continue playing by the officials, when it's discovered that the official book is wrong, it's a T on the coach? Is this some kind of disincentive to keep the home (presumably the official book is the home book in most cases?) bookkeeper from fiddling the numbers?

I believe there used to be a case play where a player continued to participate after receiving a 5th foul before the situation is discovered. If I remember correctly, the ruling is that the player is to be replaced at the next dead ball after he/she is discovered to have fouled out, but there is no further penalty since the player was not yet officially disqualified. ("Officially"meaning the table informs the referee and the referee then informing the coach).

P.S. Scorebooks are to be kept in INK to help with no unsporting beheavior.[/QUOTE]

Wow! Been calling a long time and have never seen a book completed, or attempted, in ink?

Mulk

Wow! Been calling a long time and have never seen a book completed, or attempted, in ink?

Mulk[/QUOTE]

Come to one of my games. Depending on the level, you can expect to see my game sheet have two or four colors of ink, one for each period (not including overtime). The official scorer at another local high school does the same.

I do it because:

(1) My dad was a scorer in a game where the visiting coach was arguing about team fouls, and after the game, the AD suggested he use either different colors or opposite hash marks ( / vs. \ ) for each half.

(2) When compiling totals for the quarter/half and game, it's easier to sum up the like-colored symbols.

But I have personally not heard of this being a requirement by rule.

Come to one of my games. Depending on the level, you can expect to see my game sheet have two or four colors of ink, one for each period (not including overtime). The official scorer at another local high school does the same.

I do it because:

(1) My dad was a scorer in a game where the visiting coach was arguing about team fouls, and after the game, the AD suggested he use either different colors or opposite hash marks ( / vs. \ ) for each half.

(2) When compiling totals for the quarter/half and game, it's easier to sum up the like-colored symbols.

But I have personally not heard of this being a requirement by rule.[/QUOTE]

My mom does the book at my old high school, and this is the way they do it, different colors each quarter. It can help if there is a discrepancy, although hopefully that isn't something anybody has to deal with.;)

Interesting! I usually just do the opposite angled hash marks and (in an NCAA book) write the time for everything.

Really - So if the thrower releases the ball, and a defender breaks the boundary to touch the ball, there is NO violation??

If they touch the ball, it is a T. The official was correct.

Mregor

Coach, since this was not an unsporting act, but merely do to a scoring error, there is no penalty. Here is the rule straight from the book that states what to do in such a case.

NFHS 2-11-11
Note 2. The procedure if a player who has committed his/her fifth foul continues to play because the scorer has failed to notify the official is as follows: As soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn should be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The disqualified player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is included among the duties of the officials.