This is driving me crazy...where is it in the rules, that if a "dribbler" -person legally dribbling the ball, that if the ball bounces higher than his shoulder while he is in control and has his palm on TOP of the ball that it is a carry. I can't find it, but see refs call it ALL the time, new refs, seasoned refs, they all call it, but I can't find it in the rule book. Please help.

Apaddle

It's not a carry. All the rule book says is that the ball can't come to rest in the dribbler's hand. I think what happens is that it looks awkward and the first instinct is to blow the whistle, I know I have done it before, especially when I lose concentration. But as long as the ball doesn't come to rest in the dribbler's hand he can dribble it as high as he wants.

No that is not carrying the ball but a lot of times what really is a carry is not being called enough. And in incorporating the thread about pre-games, I try to make sure we clean this up early in the game, especially for upper level boys.

Do you really see "seasoned" refs call this? Hardly ever, I would guess. Maybe you just remember the few times it was called incorrectly and are extrapolating.

I work with tons of "seasoned" refs and I don't think I've seen any one of them make that call incorrectly in at least 5 years. And that represents well over 1000 games.

I have.
 

Mark,
I occasionally see it called by veteran officials; but, yeah, "hardly ever",... except by the Byron collar guys.
mick

Unfortunately, last season, I saw a veteran official call this traveling!?

I have to admit, I did this Saturday morning in a fall league varsity boys game. As soon as I made the call, I told myself -- you are a dumb s**t! It was ugly, but legal and the player knew I kicked it as soon as I made the call. I wasn't sure what I should have done then. I simply told him, yeah, I kicked it. He laughed and went on, considering they were up by 25 points. I guess I could have said inadvertant(sp) whistle, but either way I would have looked dumb or dumber.

The opposite reaction
 

You're complaining that officials are calling this palming when it shouldn't be. But frankly, I never call this palming and it's the coaches who scream for the palming call.

I'm sure that there are some officials out there who call this palming, but the greater problem is coaches and fans who don't understand the rule and expect the palming call when it clearly is not.

Chuck

Re: I have.
 

Speaking of the collar guys, I worked two rec girls games with one of them last Sunday. First game JV, second game varsity. He kicked a number of calls (none for carrying, however), consistently called in my area, didn't know the over and back rule at all, wore an association patch from an association he quit years ago ("It's the only shirt I got"), wore a watch and also had bad breath.

Other than that, he was pretty good. ;)


Actually, the worst problem I had with him was a T that he called against one of the varsity coaches. The guy hadn't said a word the entire game and we were now in the 4th quarter with his team up by 1. Earlier, the coach asked me about an over and back call I made (which I explained) and he did it just the way you want a coach to do it - he waited for a break, then asked it very politely. After I explained it, he nodded his head and thanked me. He then explained it to his player.

So, anyway, we're in the 4th quarter and a defender was slightly hand checking his dribbler. All he said was "get her off, please". He only said it once and he barely raised his voice. All of a sudden - WHACK!

This was at The Hoop in Beaverton, OR, where there is a house rule that all technicals are two shots, possession and an automatic two points for the other team. It's a really harsh penalty and this definitely was a contributing factor in his team losing by 3.

Yes - I discussed all this with "Collar-boy" but I got the feeling it just rolled off his collar.

Mark Padgett said: "Do you really see "seasoned" refs call this? Hardly ever, I would guess. Maybe you just remember the few times it was called incorrectly and are extrapolating.

I work with tons of "seasoned" refs and I don't think I've seen any one of them make that call incorrectly in at least 5 years. And that represents well over 1000 games."

Mark, you do not officiate in Ohio or Michigan then, where the coaches determine who officiates regular season and tournament games at the varsity level. I cannot begin to tell you how many times a season I see veteran officials make that call in H.S. freshmen, jr. varsity, and varsity, and jr. H.S. games.

And when I ask them why they made that call, none of them can give me an answer that will hold water, except, the coaches never say a word when these officials call it but go nuts when I refuse to call it, especially when my partner decides to call it from the lead position on the point guard who is eight feet above the top of the key and directly in front of me.

I am jealous of you because you do not have this problem in Oregon.

You can't find it in the book because it isn't there. Palming the ball occurs when the dribbler allows the ball to come to rest in his/her hand; that hasn't happened in your scenario. It isn't travelling, either, since it is not possilbe to travel during a dribble. If you've seen veterans call this, they are just flat wrong.

Mark actually doesn't work HS games (regular season or tournament), although he did some years ago. He works HS-aged rec leagues and offseason leagues that involves some of the HS players. So, the fact that he doesn't see it called is even more impressive since some of the officials he works with may be very inexperienced and many have never worked an actual HS game.

Camron's point is well taken. Since my work schedule and my desire to see all of my son's games induced me to retire years ago from working official HS, my "games per year" has risen to well over 300 (I work at least 7 different rec leagues), many of which are done with very inexperienced officials. Now, it may be that the reason is tied to the fact that very young officials (and I work with a whole bunch of them) are reluctant to blow their whistle for anything at all, but I think that's just a small part of it.

I train officials for two rec associations and I emphasize concentrating on contact and calling fouls. So perhaps, in games done the first year or two by those officials, some violations (including perceived violations) go uncalled. But I have found that coaches scream ten times more for missed fouls than missed violations, and I have yet to see a player get a serious injury due to a violation.

Getting back to the point, I think there has been so much emphasis on this call, officials are just getting it right. At least out here. I do attend a (very) few HS games at my local HS, and did attend more when my son played a few years ago, and I have not seen this called incorrectly at this HS in many years.

One call I do see called incorrectly quite often is over and back. I actually hold a separate training session just on this rule during my general training sessions.

I've seen plenty of kids break some ankles on some nasty crossovers made possible by a(n illegal) palming of the ball :D

What would the violation signal be for palming the ball? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe it is covered in the book.

Palming
 

The new rule book page 75 shows palming as the same signal as over & back (palming/carrying the ball). Hope that helps.

I have always used the carry/over&back signal. :)

OOH OOH I got it, here's another one!!!!
 

How bout the coaches that scream for OVER the back? I picked up a signal invented by my partner: it goes somewhat in the form of a large grizzly bear standing on his hind legs about to attack someone from behind... bummer is I've never gotten to use it cuz, well gee as long as they're OVER and not ON the back I can't call anything. ....Besides considering his size my partner has much better form and physique in using that signal.

The NF just approved this signal for use within the last year or so.

Better to stay away from the grizzly bear signal Tweets! ;)

Re: I have.
 

Not to be TOO dense, but what does this mean (literally, figuratively...)?

Joe

Re: Re: I have.
 

Joe,
The Byron collar style shirt was, and in some cases is still, worn in the recent past. It's the Official's shirt with the solid black collar and the zipper.
The shirt is outdated, as are some of the mechanics used in the old days.
Most officials have gone to the V-neck and updated their mechanics; others use the same "equipment", and mechanics, as they did 20-30 years ago, with the explanation, "...it still works good enough."
mick

Re: Re: Re: I have.
 

That's what I was afraid you were going to say. I still have a couple of those shirts... It still works good en....

crap.

Re: OOH OOH I got it, here's another one!!!!
 

I've actually seen several guys use some variation of this. I'll never use it because it contributes to the myth that there is some rule called "over the back." I think it's on the same page as "reaching in."

What we did with our BC shirts.
 

Joe,
Now, that's funny! :D
The wife of one of my partners volunteered to make <b><u>Striped Shoe Bags</u></b> out of our shirts. They are washable, and real easy to find in your bag, on a shelf, or in a dark closet. Some have zippers and others have draw strings. I am not sure of the current model.
mick

My wife did this for me. I had 2 older shirts (Byron collars) and she made 2 sets (one for white and one for black). For the white shoes, she put white drawstrings. Several of my partners have commented on how much they like them.

Byron Collars
 

I have one of these shirts just in case my partner thinks to say: "Hey, I only have a collared shirt" then I can wear one to match.

Re: Byron Collars
 

Richard,
I can truthfully say, "Hey I only have a V-neck, you can use my spare." ;)
mick

Re: Re: Byron Collars
 

I still got a bunch of them, somewhere under a big pile of
something. I never carry them to games. Turning them into
shoe bags sounds like a great idea, wish I knew how to
sew. :(

This is BAD!!!
 

I think that this can only lead to poor officiating so as you do not lose games in these leagues. Because coaches and players have such a poor understanding of the rules officials would have to make bad calls or they would be out obviously. This is something that needs to be changed. Impartiality is the hallmark of a good official!!

Malcolm
 

Unfortunately, the "system" that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. has described for MI and OH is similiar to the practice used in WI.

Conference Commissioners assign conference games during the regular season. The WIAA (Wisconsin Interscholatstic Athletic Association) assigns officials for the tournament games. The WIAA solicits "feedback" from the coaches to "rate" the officials. Most of the coaches I have spoke to about this do not like it, and, of course, Officials do not like it.

I have sent correspondence to the WIAA and even proposed that valid solution. Using "retired" officials to evaluate officials. The WIAA gave the "proverbial" well give it consideration. Change is difficult AND in this case viewed as too expensive.