Up and Under Move

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Your answer doesn't address your own rule citation: if the guard is not the first to occupy a spot on the floor legally, then he is not entitled to the spot, whether he jumps, walks, or runs there. When the guard lands on the shooter, the guard is not the first to the spot; since he was not vertical, he is not there legally.

How is this case different from a garden-variety block? Why does the jump make a difference? Are you smuggling in verticality to imply that the guard is entitled to come down on the spot?

Am I missing something?

If no one is in front of you when you jump, aren't you entitled to land? You're forgetting that the shooter wasn't vertical either. The shooter moved under the airborne defender after the defender had already jumped.

[Carl Cramer]

Well, it's settled then. Only one applicable rule citation:

4-23-3c
After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

Additionally,
Which player first committed to leaving his vertical space? Defender
Which player made a stupid play? Defender
Which player made the best basketabll play? Shooter

Reward the shooter.

If this OP is a foul on the shooter....if airborne shooter and airborne defenders share equally the right to a landing spot (...no rule citation here was supplied here, by the way), then please don't let the defenders of this world know. Because we'll have guarding players jumping up and out of vertical in front of driving shooters like a flea circus. Yikes!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Carl Cramer

Well, it's settled then. Only one applicable rule citation:

4-23-3c
After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

Additionally,
Which player first committed to leaving his vertical space? Defender
Which player made a stupid play? Defender
Which player made the best basketabll play? Shooter

Reward the shooter.

If this OP is a foul on the shooter....if airborne shooter and airborne defenders share equally the right to a landing spot (...no rule citation here was supplied here, by the way), then please don't let the defenders of this world know. Because we'll have guarding players jumping up and out of vertical in front of driving shooters like a flea circus. Yikes!

So........if a dribbler elbows a defender running beside him, the foul has to be on the defender because he doesn't have LGP?

And what if the shooter leaves his feet first? Is it still a foul on the shooter if the defender moves under him?

Great logic.

[SeanFitzRef]

I think this play, with all of the rules citations and everything, should still be judged by determining LGP and verticality.

Did the defender jump straight up, or out towards the shooter's fake position?

Once doing that, did the defender forfeit his/her legal gaurding position?

Did the shooter initiate contact by throwing body into the defender, or did the shooter simply slide to an unoccupied spot on the floor where the defender was jumping forward to?

Looks to me as if the defender jumped out towards the shooter, forfeiting LGP, and the shooter moved to a spot on the floor, not into the defender. Two shots.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SeanFitzRef

Did the defender jump straight up, or out towards the shooter's fake position?

Once doing that, did the defender forfeit his/her legal gaurding position?

Again, LGP does not have to be a factor in making this type of call.

If a player jumps forward to grab a rebound, would you call a foul on him if an opponent moved under him from the side after the player had left his feet? There's no LGP involved in this play, is there?

If a dribbler and a defender are running down the floor in established straight-line paths side-by-each, can the dribbler veer to the side and force the defender out of his straight-line path legally because the defender didn't have LGP?

The same concept in both case is used to make the call.