Travel or not
 

Question that I can't seem to find an answer to. At a high school game in Michigan the other night A1 is in bounding the ball after a made basket. A1 passess the ball to A2 who had established himself out of bounds along the end line. A2 then proceeds to run the end line prior to in bounding the ball.
A2 was able to in bound the ball within five seconds. A travel was called on
A2, ball was turned over and no time off the clock. Is this a travel on A2? Or can A2 run the end line also as long as the ball is put into play within five seconds.

If the thrower violates by moving outside the designated 3' spot during a spot throw-in, it is NOT a travel!!! It is simply throw-in violation.

That's true, but in the original situation, it was not a designated spot throw-in. The original situation was a legal play.

I'm sure you knew that, I just didn't want others to be confused.

Same as Scrapper saw it. NO Violation! It was a made basket, and they have the privilege of using the entire endline. The call was "kicked"! On a spot throw-in, as soon as A2 steps out of bounds, it became a violation. Can't remember the specific rule (JR may post now), but two players simultaneously out-of-bounds during a spot throw-in constitutes a violation.

Rule 7-5-7 states- "the team not credited with the goal shall make the throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point outside the end line". It also says "Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a teammmate(s) outside the boundary line".

obviously the last time the calling official read a rule book was many years ago.
At one time - that was the signal (rotating hands over each otheras in traveling) for leaving the spot on a designated throw in.
However leaving the designated spot does not apply in this situation since this was after a made basket the inbounding team was entitled to move along the baseline OOB and pass - so by rule there was no violation
So not only did the official blow the call - he blew the signal for the call he made.
I can not imagine what we could call that.

There never was an approved signal for a spot violation like that in NFHS or NCAA that I know of. Sure it wasn't a local thang?

Either Padgett or I called this this weekend, and the coach yells sarcastically, "Thanks for the warning". As I went past him a play or two later, same coach asked, "How were the players supposed to know about that rule?" I said, "It's in the rule book, aren't you using the Fed rulebook that the league gave you?" Parents looked at him curiously.

Why was there no time off the clock?

I'm assuming there was no time off the clock because the travel must have been called prior to establishing possession inbounds.

The clock should be running after a made basket.

True Nuff, unless in the last minute of the game, or after free throws. Yea I know I am adding my own twist to OP.

The clock stops in the last minute of a game??

Always? ;)

Actually, it's because I hear Michigan is following in Utah's steps of moving toward the pro game. ;)

clock runs after a made basekt no matter what the time.

also dont forget should you have a foul on the defense during the throw in -- that is before the throw in can be completed -- and the resulting spot for the throw in is the endline -- the team retains the right to run the endline. Now of course the clock will not be running - if it is you or your partner should chase after it before it leaves the building.

Sorry forgot to let you know clock was stopped due to a T.O.. Also clock started when A1 passed to A2 (both player still OOB). Original time was put back on the clock.

The clock runs, yet time flies. I'm soooo confused. :p

Does the clock start on the pass to the other OOB teammate when they have the privelege of running the endline?
I would imagine that this would fit the scenario discussed at length on a previous thread about throw-in administration and when a throw-in ends?? ie: the throw-in ends when the ball is touched by a player who is IB or OOB.

no the clock does not start -- this throw in does not end -- unitl it touches a temmate in bounds -- or OOB on any line except the endline where the throw in is occureing -- or if it touches an opponent inbounds or OOB.

Thanks deecee, that's what I thought. So in the post by msp8514, the time was put back on the clock because it was started inadvertantly on the OOB pass to the teammate?

Just to clarify and add an exception to what you've just stated - A teammate who is not taking part in the throw-in (say one who is has his/her back turned to the thrower and has out of bounds status) touches or is touched by the ball, it's a throw-in violation by A, the throw-in ends, and it's B's ball at the spot nearest the violation.
Inadvertantly or incorrectly, yes.

Ok
1. Made Basket.
2. Time Out.
3. A1 has the right to run the endline to throw-in.
4. A1 throws to A2 who is OOB along the endline.
5. A2 now has a spot throw-in where the ball was caught. This is what I thought but reading other posts A2 can run the entire endline. I can't find anything in the NFHS that would stop A2 from running the endline.

hawkeye do you have case play for that?

That is because there is nothing to stop A2 from running the endline ;)

Huh? :confused:

Sounds like you are saying:
1) Team B scores a basket.
2) A1 has the ball out of bounds along the endline for the throw-in.
3) A1 passes the ball along the endline to A2 who is also out of bounds along the endline, but
4) A2 has his back to A1.
5) The pass hits A2 in the back and bounces out of bounds along the endline.
6) Violation.

Is this what you're saying? If so, I disagree.

What violation? Have you got a rules citation to back that statement up?

I'm with Scrapper. There's no rule that I know of that that states that this a violation.

wow jr and i agree -- close the boards down

decee, Scrapper, and Jurassic -

Sorry - I was not clear enough in my last post. The player (let's call him/her A3) I was envisioning (and not describing well enough by only saying "out of bounds status") was basically under the basket, one foot touching out of bounds, not facing the thrower (possibly performing whatever part of the press-break play they're responsible for - screening, getting out of the way, etc., as the thrower is gathering the ball following the made basket), and gets hit by an out of bounds pass (say on their arm) from thrower A1 that is intended for A2, who is also out of bounds, on the other side of the key.

I'm asserting that this player is also out of bounds, on the same (end)line as the thrower (as decee said), but that this is a throw-in violation by A under 9-2-10, similar in rationale to 4.35.2(b).

(I agree that the ball touching another A player who is completely out of bounds on an endline pass during the throw-in would not be a violation.)

Also -
 

I believe I made an error in my original post - the throw-in, if I am right on everything else, would be from the spot the throw-in was released by A1 - not the spot of the violation, as I originally said. My mistake.

Again, I disagree. R9-2-10, as you stated, refers to a <b>"throw-in pass"</b>. A <b>throw-in pass"</b>, by rule (7-6-1) is thrown directly <b>into</b> the court, not along the end line. Rule 9-2-2 basically says the same thing. Iow rule 9-2-10 is not relevant or germane. When A1 is throwing the ball along the endline, that is a legal <b>pass</b> under R7-5-7, <b>not</b> a <b> throw-in</b>. A3 was hit <b>OOB</b> by a legal <b>pass</b>. There isn't any violation extant that you can call that I know of when that happens.


If A3 had one foot OOB, then he was legally OOB and had OOB status too btw. Case book play 4.35.2(b) isn't relevant either. Rules 7-5-7 and 7-6-1 are.

A "pass" is defined as a movement of the ball -- thrown, batted, or rolled -- to another player (Aggie paraphrase; 4-31). There's no requirement that the ball be caught by the other player. If it hits him in the back while he's OOB and the ball stays OOB, then we are still OK. As long as we don't have a throw in violation (5 seconds, passing the ball onto the court, etc.) or a "caused to go OOB" violation (player touching the ball OOB while being inbounds, etc.), and the ball is thrown, batted, or rolled to another player, we are OK. Play on.

Beaten into submission yet again....

Thanks, guys.

A lot of confusion here: To calrify one part ... after a made basket A1 takes ball OOB and passes to A2, who is also OOB (beyond the endline) ... is A2 allowed to also run the baseline?

The <b>only</b> throw-in restrictions after a made or awarded basket are that the throw-in must be towards the court, the thrower is OOB when he lets the throw-in go and the throw-in leaves the thrower's hands before 5 seconds. Other than that, team A can have 5 players OOB doing a Globetrotters routine if they want to. Or the <i>Macarena</i>.

I don't follow your post. A1 has to throw towards the court?
What about to A2 who is also OOB. Can A2 run the baseline as well?

Anybody from the throwing team can run the end line out-of-bounds. Anybody from the throwing team can also be out-of-bounds until a throw-in is made. Anybody from the throwing team can pass the ball back and forth to each other along the endline as long as one of them starts a <b>throw-in</b> before the 5-second count is up.

A throw-in is always directed towards the court--i.e. in bounds. If the ball is directed along the endline OOB to a teammate, then they're <b>passes</b>, not a <b>throw-in</b>.

Make sense now?

I think so ... so, once A1 passes to A2, A2 can also run the endline, correct? And A2 could also pass to A3?

Yes. All 5 A players can run the endline and all 5 A players can pass the ball to each other out-of-bounds.

That would be hard to do in 5 seconds :) Thanks!

Just to add to this; if the ball hits A2 in the back (he's OOB) and bounces directly inbounds without touching the floor OOB, this bounce is now the throwin and must be touched inbounds next by anyone but A2 to avoid a throwin violation.

Hmm.... was the other foot touching inbounds? If so does this violate the "the inbounder shall not touch the court inbounds before releasing the ball on a throw-in pass" (or wahtever it says) rule? I'm without myu books today, and too lazy to try to read them on-line.

Good grief. Some are making this situation far too difficult.

After a made or awarded basket, Team A cannot do anything during the throw-in that changes it to a spot throw-in. Any number of players can run the baseline after legally catching the ball while OOB.

If a Team A player is straddling the boundary line when he touches a live ball during a throw-in, IT IS A VIOLATION. There's no scenario where that would be legal.

That was my first thought as well. However, after reading JR's take on this, I decided to think about it for a while and check some rules before I posted my answer.

Are you sure about that? Did A2 really make a throw-in pass? Did he throw, bat, or roll the ball onto the court? ;)

Nothing says he can't bat it with his head. ;)

I'm trying to follow this. I got the running the end line thing down .. as long as the ball is passed between players who are out of bounds along the end line it's okay as long as there are not any other throw in violations like 5 seconds or stepping in bounds while holding the ball.

What I'm having a hard time with is the scenario in which the ball is passed from A1 who is OOB behind he end line to A2 who is also OOB behind the end line but on the way it hits A3 on the back or head (or whatever?) while A3 has one foot OOB and one foot inbounds. Is this not a throw in violation considering A3 had a foot in bounds? If it isn't a violation how does it differ from a scenario where A1 step inbounds while still holding the ball?

There's the original post, Nevada and BktBallRef. Note- <b>"has out of bounds status"</b>. In a later post, Hawkeye again reiterated that the teammate had OOB status but was standing with one foot touching OOB. There is no mention anywhere that the player was straddling the endline- i.e. also had one foot touching inbounds. . If he was, it should have been stated as such by Hawkeye. It wasn't.

You're both reading something into the play that has never been stated anywhere. I answered the question as per his original post, as did Scrapper also. There is no violation if his teammate was defined as being "outside the boundary line"( as in R7-5-7), as he would be if he was "standing with one foot out of bounds".

Of course, it is a different call if he was straddling the endline. That is a violation.

You tell me. Do you regard the ball going off his body as being a "throw-in pass" or not?

Where did he state that he was straddling the boundary line?:confused:

Wanna bet? :)

4-15-1 . . . A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

He implied it in post #30 which you quoted in #32 when he described the player as "one foot touching out of bounds," and then later wrote, "(I agree that the ball touching another A player who is completely out of bounds on an endline pass during the throw-in would not be a violation.)"

One would have to understand that he meant the first player with "one foot touching out of bounds" has the other foot touching inbounds, otherwise this player would, in fact, be "completely out of bounds."

Got it? :)

Where did he <b>state</b>, not <b>imply</b> that the player was straddling the end line?

Howinthetheheck did you go from the <b>throw-in pass</b> that Snaqs was talking about to a <b>dribble</b>?:confused:

Unless I see a clear ruling that tells me it's a violation, I'm letting it go. Trying to determine whether a bat is a bat is a legal throwin pass doesn't get me there.

A "dribble" is a "throw-in" doesn't get me there either.

Alright, I have to confess that I did mean (but left out in post #30, apparently in my haste to type it out) that the player had one foot out of bounds and one foot inbounds. - Nevada's correct in his/her assumption.

So this is a violation, and I was originally correct - just extremely unclear in my description. (I sincerely apologize, as I know how annoying that is on here - especially since it has generated so much discussion about that particluar play).

Yeah right.....OOB isn't really OOB...you were right all along.:rolleyes:

If you bat the ball with your hand that is legal ... but, what if you strike it with your fist? That is illegal, correct?

That just happens to be where the term bat is defined in the NFHS rules book. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear anywhere else.

Yes, it's illegal, but not because it doesn't say you can. It's illegal because it specifically says you cannot do it.

When did I write that, or anything to that effect?:confused:

Anyway, straddling the line is what I meant in my original post(s), and it's why I intentionally left it vague when I said "has out of bounds status" - otherwise I would've said "who is out of bounds." I'm pretty careful how I word things on here - I just left something out. Take it for what it's worth, but be assured that I'm not trying to make myself sound smarter (or less incorrect) by writing my previous post. I admit I'm wrong all the time on here.

This is a correct inference and interpretation of what I wrote, because it's what I was (unclearly) implying.
I didn't. As I essentially said earlier: MY BAD.

Thanks for the info. I just don't like to gender-assume.:)