Subsitution problems
 

I have been having a real problem with substitutions in my new area. A lot of officials here do not insist on a horn from the table for a substitution. Instead, they blow the whistle for subs which is not a high school mechanic. They also allow subs to come to the table one at a time when the ball is ready to be put into play. In fact, some guys use the whistle entirely instead of their voice for things like telling the players to give them the ball. For instance, one partner calls travel and goes to become new lead. The official who is going to put the ball into play blows the whistle to tell the player to give him the ball instead of using his voice and telling the player where the spot is.
I created :D some problems last night because I insisted on the players being at the table and a horn from the table.

Do you guys use the whistle for every sub along with or instead of a horn from the table?

It is customary to use the whistle for many substitution situations where I live. It has been encouraged to use the whistle instead of using having the horn blown. For one many tables blow the horn at the improper time. Now it is not encouraged at all times that a whistle is necessary, but to get our partner's attention so they so they do not put the ball in play too soon. It really is not a big deal. I do see why you would want to have the players at the table before the horn is blown. I guess it just comes down to what is taught where you live and is anyone going to make a big deal out of this.

Peace

We try and use a whistle on every sub. It is good communication between partners and I think we have found that it prevents a lot of problems because it means someone is watching....

We dont use whistles on the other stuff you describe. However there are a few of us that blow the whistle on most baseline plays when the ball is coming in. Rule states anythine there is a substantial delay... If there has been a sub or any time of delay I blow my whistle; worka a lot better than telling players ball is in play. Coach has no excuse if they get burned on an inbound play because everyone hears the whistle.

I guess it does boil down to where you live sometimes. I can't change it, but it does get on my nerves. I don't agree about it being good communication between partners. We should always look at the table to check for subs and look at our partners regardless of whether we use a whistle or a horn. Using the whistle for everything devalues the whistle IMO.
Working with a good table that knows when to use the horn is better than officials blowing their whistle all the time IMO. It becomes a big deal here because substitutions become inconsistent. To each his own.

It drives me nuts watching officials that DON'T whistle the sub in, although we expect a horn first followed by the whistle from the covering official. It really does depend on your area.

Around here, neither the horn nor the whistle is absolutely necessary. I think of the horn as a way to get the officials attention, and the whistle gets the attention of the waiting sub (come in) and the other officials. (don't put the ball in play yet) If I have the ball in my hand and I am close to the table, if I see the sub get up and come to the x, I may wave him/her into the game without a horn or a whistle. The biggest problems here are: 1. Coaches who think that they can yell "Sub!" and stop the proceedings anywhere short of a live ball, even if the player is not even off the bench yet. 2. Many players at all levels think the horn is their green light to enter the court.

Are you working NCAAW games? That is the only rule set which I know of where a whistle is required or even desired for bringing in subs.:(

I'm with Tom, the fewer whistles during the game, the better. I want to be able to hear when I'm 50! :)

What gets me is when the table doesn't use horn. For example, I see a kid get up and start for the table while the ball is in play. Several seconds go by and then we get a dead ball. Then for some reason I get distracted like after an intense play or something out of the ordinary; and, just as the ball is about to be put in play I look over and the kid is standing on the X and the table hasn't buzzed us to let us know about the sub. Now I know a lot of you are thinking that I should not get rattled or distracted. I'm getting better with time and experience, but I'm still waiting for the horn.

BTW, do any of you guys have table-bench locations that are out of the ordinary? Like table 10 feet in the air with no possible way to see subs? We have one that the sub flips a light switch to let them know he/she is down there. Another gym has home bench table side and visitors across gym floor. Are we unique are do ya'll see some of the same stuff?

barryb

Nothing much out of the ordinary around here. But I noticed that Vanderbilt's gym was rather odd during Saturday's Vandy/GT game. Benches at the end of the floor. Table about 20 feet off the floor and sunken down in. There was about 20 feet of free space on both sidelines. Was it built to house an olympic ice rink or something?

I watched a game last eyar where two courts were set up going across the width of the main Varsity court. It was a club league tournament. The clock connection was at center court of the main court and so the tournament had to set up at the end lines of the two other courts, with the benches closer to mid court. Home team always had the advantage here being closer to the table. It got so bad for the officials that they eventually started to let the substitutes change on the fly. Like hockey. I really couldn't believe it.

I wish people would realize that local custom and practice count for something. Using a whistle or not using a whistle is a trivial thing and sometimes it's better to adapt to the local custom than stubbornly point at a mechanics manual and convince others that they are "wrong."

I have to use the whistle because the table never uses the horn.

I would have to look it up, but this is not really addressed in the NF manual. Either way it goes, who cares if you blow the whistle or not as long as you are following what is accepted. Waiting on the horn is not always the best thing when you have table personnel does not properly use the horn. I personally perfer blowing my whistle because if I do not, the horn might go off at the wrong time and it lets my partner know that I am holding them up for a reason.

Peace

I used to be a no whistle guy. I had a camp this summer where they specificially told us they wanted a whistle on every sub (the camp was run by the local college assigner, a retired D1 womens official -- when in Rome...). Since then, I've just kept on using it.

I have noticed that using the whistle can work to your advantage in one small, but helpful way. If you can consistently get a whistle on the sub before the table gets a horn on him, it makes you look more on top of stuff.

I guess you could solve that by telling the operator to sound the horn when the subs have properly reported...
I have noticed that some crews like to blow the whistle every time the ball is put into play...not necessary. But, I do agree, if there has been a delay, or if you want to get someones attention, blow it.

I think thatyou will find that NHFS Rule 3 section 3 Article 1 D covers the situation
If entry is at any time other than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer shall use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as,the ball is dead and the clock is stopped.
and NCAA Rule 3 section 4When entry is any time other than between halves, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the timer shall sound the horn when (or as soon as) the ball is dead and time is out.

there is also information about being beconed onto the floor - however the scorer or timer is by rule to sound the horn to notify the officials of a substitute.

Now if you are allowing subs to enter from the bench - because someone is yelling sub then a whistle may be necessary -
IMHO you are wrong - the player should be at the table ready to go at the dead ball to be allowed to enter the game at that time. it is the rule if you enforce it they will adapt.

The situation you just posted does not say not to blow the whistle. That was the point. Of course the horn can be sounded, but it does not say you should not blow the whistle as an official in this situation. That was the point of my post. ;)

Peace

I think that blowing the whistle to bring in a player is optional after the horn is blown and depends on where the beconing official is on the floor at the time. but during this thread I got the impression that in a lot of cases people are not blowing the horn to notify officials of the substitiute that is wrong by rule.

IMO, a table crew who blows the horn at the appropriate time and not using whistles makes things cleaner. Maybe it is just about where I worked at the longest, but that is what I like the best. BTW, in Las Vegas the table crew are part of the association, are adults and are paid to do a good job. That could be where the difference is.

There are times when I will beat the table to the horn, but usually it's simultaneous (or close to it).

I will wait for a substitute if he/she is getting up and looks like he/she will be heading to the table. We're consistent as a crew on that regard.

--Rich

That must be the life, my table crew tends to be players from the B team for the A team game and vica versa.

tomegun. I am jealous.....
 

most of the varsity games here have adults at the table. But our lower level games usually are the kid who happened to be hanging around the gym at game time. I am developing pretty good clock management skills because of this . I miss Las Vegas. grew up outside of town and went to school there and lived there for awhile. Saw an old JR High Math teacher reffing one night there at Green Valley High. I didn't get a chance to say hi though...

The problem I see is the table personnel are not always very competent where I live. You get some that are wonderful and you get others that have no idea what to do. Even if you have a pre-game with the table that is not going to make it any better. Many times the timer will blow the horn when the sub is not even at the table and after we have given the ball to the thrower on a throw-in or FT. So I tell them to not blow that whistle unless they have been sitting at that table for several seconds and we did not acknowledge them. This helps make the table feel they do not have to blow the horn all the time. Basically if I can prevent the table from blowing the whistle I have accomplished something.

I used to not believe this, but I have changed my point of view because of the many problems I have had over the years with the table. I have also been told to use the whistle more and more at camps. It works for me.

Peace

I was under the impression that one of the IL State clinicians specfically sadi NOT to use the whistle (on most, normal, substituitons).

It is a specific NCAAW mechanic to use the whistle on subs.

I did not say there was anything official from anyone. If this was the official word, I would have made that very clear. I have been told in many situations to blow the whistle at camps both HS and college camps. I will say that I have worked with a few clinicians and no one said not to blow the whistle or that the IHSA had a specific policy. As far as I know it is one of those many things that depending on who you talk to or who you work with will make an issue out of this one way or another.

Peace

No whistle
 

Last Friday I was evaluating a new official during the 1st half of the JV game and the veteran official blew his whistle on every sub, regardless of the table sounding the horn. I was sitting right behind the table and they did a fine job with the horn. The whistle got pretty annoying when it was always horn, short delay, whistle. Way too redundant and what's the point? I was told at State, if the table uses the horn for subs then skip the whistle. We don't need horn AND whistle.

But, like has been said, follow the local custom.....

Your situation is my point exactly.

Rich,
I would not go so far as to tell you that you are "wrong" for something like this. I actually just believe that it is an irritant and calls unnecessary attention to the officials. My preference is that the officials only get noticed during a game when they have to be. Otherwise, leave the attention on the players.

As for your point about local custom, I could well turn that around and ask why people in local areas stubbornly refuse to simply follow the manual and insist on adapting things in their own way. I've never understood why some people feel the need to make these little alterations.

The fact is they do. The book is not magical, all-wise, nor all-knowing. It's not revealed truth. It's a tool to get us all on the same page. And if some choose to do things different from the book, but the same as each other, have they not achieved the same end?

BTW, if everybody in a region uses a whistle on subs, the guy who doesn't is drawing unneccessary attention to himself by withholding it.

It has also been established that any state can use variations of mechanics from the NF book. So for anyone to suggest that we must look only at the NF book, they have never talked to anyone from the NF office, because they do not see things that way at all.

Secondly, the NF book does not cover all situations. I am still waiting for the reference in the book that says "you cannot use the whistle in any substitution situation." If someone can show a passage or similar passage, then I will believe them when they say this is against NF mechanics. Even in the CCA Men's book it does not address this, but I have been told many times to blow the whistle and have witnessed the whistle being blown on substitutions in person watching D1 officials.

Peace