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-   -   Thats not a foul?!? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/30029-thats-not-foul.html)

Larks Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:05am

Thats not a foul?!?
 
Please correct me if I am wrong....I'd like a FIBA, NBA, NCAA, NFHS, Bob's backyard league, International, Olympic, grade school, CYO and any other level or organization world wide interp for this play...

A1 passes the ball to A2 who fumbles the ball.

So we have a loose ball about 2 or 3 feet from A2

She moves to pick it up...B2 dives for the ball from behind A2 taking the legs of A2 out from under her.

A2 falls to the floor....B2 secures the ball.

FOUL......right? RIGHT??

Mr. howler monkey informs me that I should let them play and that since the ball was loose, thats not a foul. I was also reminded that this was girls varsity basketball and not..."sissy ball" from one of his jr. howler types.

I thanked him for reminding me that we weren't playing "sissy ball" then promptly puked on his shoes.....

Shouldn't there be some sort of test that these guys have to pass to even be allowed to sit on the bench, let alone coach?

SISSY BALL FEVER.....CATCH IT!

rainmaker Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larks
Please correct me if I am wrong....I'd like a FIBA, NBA, NCAA, NFHS, Bob's backyard league, International, Olympic, grade school, CYO and any other level or organization world wide interp for this play...

A1 passes the ball to A2 who fumbles the ball.

So we have a loose ball about 2 or 3 feet from A2

She moves to pick it up...B2 dives for the ball from behind A2 taking the legs of A2 out from under her.

A2 falls to the floor....B2 secures the ball.

FOUL......right? RIGHT??

Okay, let's see. Prone on the floor with arms outstretched horizontally to get the ball is not LGP, so she's not maintaining position, contact was initiated by B2, A2 falls, and B2 gets an illegal advantage.

Yup, that sounds like a foul

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larks
Mr. howler monkey informs me that I should let them play and that since the ball was loose, thats not a foul. I was also reminded that this was girls varsity basketball and not..."sissy ball" from one of his jr. howler types.

I thanked him for reminding me that we weren't playing "sissy ball" then promptly puked on his shoes.....

...and reminded him that it's also not roller derby?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larks
Shouldn't there be some sort of test these guys have to pass to even be allowed to sit on the bench, let alone coach?

What they really need is a good swift T in the books.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larks
SISSY BALL FEVER.....CATCH IT!

I've caught it!!

mick Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:22am

Many poorly coached teams demand rough play to cover their lack of skill.

eg-italy Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larks
Please correct me if I am wrong....I'd like a FIBA, NBA, NCAA, NFHS, Bob's backyard league, International, Olympic, grade school, CYO and any other level or organization world wide interp for this play...

A1 passes the ball to A2 who fumbles the ball.

So we have a loose ball about 2 or 3 feet from A2

She moves to pick it up...B2 dives for the ball from behind A2 taking the legs of A2 out from under her.

A2 falls to the floor....B2 secures the ball.

FOUL......right? RIGHT??

Mr. howler monkey informs me that I should let them play and that since the ball was loose, thats not a foul. I was also reminded that this was girls varsity basketball and not..."sissy ball" from one of his jr. howler types.

I thanked him for reminding me that we weren't playing "sissy ball" then promptly puked on his shoes.....

Shouldn't there be some sort of test these guys have to pass to even be allowed to sit on the bench, let alone coach?

SISSY BALL FEVER.....CATCH IT!

I feel a tad of sarcasm in your words :)

It's difficult to judge this kind of action without seeing it. In FIBA, and I believe under every rule set, two players are allowed to chase after a loose ball and the ensuing contact must be considered incidental if both had the opportunity to get the ball without causing illegal contact.

In this situation I would look closely at A2's movements, because it is frequent that the fumbler shifts in order to protect the ball before diving for it.

If B2 went for the ball just invading A2's cylinder, I would agree with you. If A2's movement had hindered B2's dive, it might have been a team control foul or a no call.

Mark Dexter Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larks
She moves to pick it up...B2 dives for the ball from behind A2 taking the legs of A2 out from under her.

A2 falls to the floor....B2 secures the ball.

FOUL......right? RIGHT??

Sure hope it is, 'cause I called it last night. :p


Quote:

Mr. howler monkey informs me that I should let them play and that since the ball was loose, thats not a foul. I was also reminded that this was girls varsity basketball and not..."sissy ball" from one of his jr. howler types.
No technical here?

sj Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:43am

And we're all sure the coach would feel the same way if it was his kid's legs that got taken out. They don't want us to get it right. They want us to get it for them.

rockyroad Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:44am

Wow, Larks...were you out West last night? Had pretty much the same conversation wih a coach last night...her player dives into the back of the legs of offensive player and tackles her. I call foul - she argues...her next possession, her 5'1" point guard has shot blocked by 6'2" post and she screams "You'll call that ticky-tack tackle down here, but won't call that???" So she got a call- not the one she wanted, but she got a call...btw: score at the time was 69-25, she was losing.

Stat-Man Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larks
Please correct me if I am wrong....I'd like a FIBA, NBA, NCAA, NFHS, Bob's backyard league, International, Olympic, grade school, CYO and any other level or organization world wide interp for this play...

My name's not Bob, but in my former Back Yard League (1989-1992), I can safely say this would be a foul. :D

rainmaker Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad
Wow, Larks...were you out West last night? Had pretty much the same conversation wih a coach last night...her player dives into the back of the legs of offensive player and tackles her. I call foul - she argues...her next possession, her 5'1" point guard has shot blocked by 6'2" post and she screams "You'll call that ticky-tack tackle down here, but won't call that???" So she got a call- not the one she wanted, but she got a call...btw: score at the time was 69-25, she was losing.

Someday, if I really work hard, and keep learning, can I be good enough to get thse terrific games?!?

rockyroad Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker
Someday, if I really work hard, and keep learning, can I be good enough to get thse terrific games?!?

Nope...I jealously guard all those games just for my ownself!!

tjones1 Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mick
Many poorly coached teams demand rough play to cover their lack of skill.

Very true Mick, plus, these are some of the schools who are opposed to three-whistle games.

Hartsy Fri Dec 08, 2006 01:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by eg-italy
In FIBA, and I believe under every rule set, two players are allowed to chase after a loose ball and the ensuing contact must be considered incidental if both had the opportunity to get the ball without causing illegal contact.

Uh, yeah. If it's not incidental, it must be illegal. Your comment basically says two players can go after the ball unless one of them fouls, with which I agree.

The ball being loose does not suddenly turn all contact into incidental contact.

Adam Fri Dec 08, 2006 01:15pm

Does he coach rugby on the side?

rainmaker Fri Dec 08, 2006 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartsy
The ball being loose does not suddenly turn all contact into incidental contact.

Great wording!!

Larks Fri Dec 08, 2006 01:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
No technical here?

nah - it was honestly said more directed on the floor vs. screamed at me. Besides, he stayed busy washing his shoes the rest of the game.

TimTaylor Fri Dec 08, 2006 02:06pm

Larks,

IMHO you got it right. If the HM coach's remarks were directed more towards the floor vs. you or your partner, and weren't too off the wall, I might let it go....once. If he repeats it, then in the words of our commissioner, "we've got new arrangements".

HawkeyeCubP Fri Dec 08, 2006 02:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larks

I thanked him for reminding me that we weren't playing "sissy ball" then promptly puked on his shoes.....

Oh, that's good stuff.:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larks
Shouldn't there be some sort of test that these guys have to pass to even be allowed to sit on the bench, let alone coach?

Seconded!:)

eg-italy Fri Dec 08, 2006 02:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartsy
Uh, yeah. If it's not incidental, it must be illegal. Your comment basically says two players can go after the ball unless one of them fouls, with which I agree.

The ball being loose does not suddenly turn all contact into incidental contact.

Of course not. But the rules (at least ours) cover specifically this situation and say that you don't look at the severity of the contact, provided the players had the opportunity to get at the ball without causing illegal contact: if B2 had free space towards the ball, then the ensuing contact is incidental. So, just saying that A2 falls is not sufficient.

It's not a question of "sissy ball", I agree. But it's not an automatic foul either. If A2 was between B2 and the ball, then I'm inclined to call a foul on B2, but have to see the play to judge.

Adam Fri Dec 08, 2006 02:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by eg-italy
Of course not. But the rules (at least ours) cover specifically this situation and say that you don't look at the severity of the contact, provided the players had the opportunity to get at the ball without causing illegal contact: if B2 had free space towards the ball, then the ensuing contact is incidental. So, just saying that A2 falls is not sufficient.

It's not a question of "sissy ball", I agree. But it's not an automatic foul either. If A2 was between B2 and the ball, then I'm inclined to call a foul on B2, but have to see the play to judge.

Yes, but....
In the original post, he specifically stated that B2 went through A2 to get to the ball, taking A2 out at the knees. I'm not picturing any play that could be described this way in which it is not a foul on B2.

Back In The Saddle Fri Dec 08, 2006 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by eg-italy
Of course not. But the rules (at least ours) cover specifically this situation and say that you don't look at the severity of the contact, provided the players had the opportunity to get at the ball without causing illegal contact: if B2 had free space towards the ball, then the ensuing contact is incidental. So, just saying that A2 falls is not sufficient.

It's not a question of "sissy ball", I agree. But it's not an automatic foul either. If A2 was between B2 and the ball, then I'm inclined to call a foul on B2, but have to see the play to judge.

I don't know if FIBA espouses this philosophy or not, perhaps they do in different words. In HS rules when two (or more) players are going for a loose ball, long pass, etc., you have to look at how advantageous each of those player's positions is. For example, if you have two opposing players coming from opposite directions to secure a loose ball and they collide, you may well have nothing as neither player was in a more advantageous position. In the OP, A2 is between B2 and the ball, and thus has a significantly more advantageous position. If B2 causes illegal contact that negates that advantage, that's a foul.

Larks Fri Dec 08, 2006 03:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Yes, but....
In the original post, he specifically stated that B2 went through A2 to get to the ball, taking A2 out at the knees. I'm not picturing any play that could be described this way in which it is not a foul on B2.


That is exactly what happened....

PYRef Fri Dec 08, 2006 03:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartsy
The ball being loose does not suddenly turn all contact into incidental contact.

True, and don't forget that all contact in loose ball situations is not necessarily considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.
4.27.2

Nevadaref Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker
Okay, let's see. Prone on the floor with arms outstretched horizontally to get the ball is not LGP, so she's not maintaining position, contact was initiated by B2, A2 falls, and B2 gets an illegal advantage.

Yup, that sounds like a foul

While I agree with you that a foul was committed in the situation described, I have to point out that this play has nothing to do with LGP and that even a player lying on the floor has a right to that space per that case play which I can never find when I need it. :)

This play is solely about one player causing illegal contact with another player.

Time2Ref Sat Dec 09, 2006 03:37am

According to NFHS, I think that's a 15 yard penalty.......No wait, that's football.

:confused:


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