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-   -   Officials in the IU/W. ILL game (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/29996-officials-iu-w-ill-game.html)

j51969 Thu Dec 07, 2006 09:58am

Officials in the IU/W. ILL game
 
One of the officials (while center) during free throws would position himself inside the three point line half way between the endline and the free throw line (odd). The other two guys stood about even with the three point line and half way between the free throw line and the top of the key. This guy is doing big ten games I'm sure he has a reason for being where he is. Does anyone else do this, and if so, what advantage do you gain by this location?

Back In The Saddle Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by j51969
One of the officials (while center) during free throws would position himself inside the three point line half way between the endline and the free throw line (odd). The other two guys stood about even with the three point line and half way between the free throw line and the top of the key. This guy is doing big ten games I'm sure he has a reason for being where he is. Does anyone else do this, and if so, what advantage do you gain by this location?

I've never seen this. But since the first thing you do as C after the throw goes up is to step down to better see the rebounding action, perhaps he's just saving steps and starting down there. If that's the case, it makes some sense. Why not put the C down there and bring the T down to watch the line? It's not like the T is doing anything other than hiding from the coaches at the half line.

Dan_ref Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
It's not like the T is doing anything other than hiding from the coaches at the half line.

If he's doing this on the last FT or either FT on a 1&1 then he's doing it wrong.

jcarter Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:13am

I also noticed that, it was either this game or the Duke Holly Cross game I was flipping back and fourth and cant remeber now, Anyway, one of the officials was doing a visable count for the 10 second count on a free throw.

Is it different in the colledge ranks that they do this? I dont work those levels im just starting to work high school but, it was just something I noticed.

Back In The Saddle Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_ref
If he's doing this on the last FT or either FT on a 1&1 then he's doing it wrong.

True. Although that does not negate my point. Why not put the C down there, bring the T in closer, and give him something to do during each free throw?

j51969 Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:13am

He did it on all free throws:cool:

Adam Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcarter
I also noticed that, it was either this game or the Duke Holly Cross game I was flipping back and fourth and cant remeber now, Anyway, one of the officials was doing a visable count for the 10 second count on a free throw.

Is it different in the colledge ranks that they do this? I dont work those levels im just starting to work high school but, it was just something I noticed.

Sometimes I think I'm the only one who does this. Since it's in the mechanics, I'll keep it up until I'm told by my assigner to stop. :)

Raymond Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:32am

Maybe he was trying to relieve his boredom:

Western Illinois 21 19 40

Indiana 41 51 92

M&M Guy Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
True. Although that does not negate my point. Why not put the C down there, bring the T in closer, and give him something to do during each free throw?

Who watches the players along the lane? If the C is where it was described, how can they watch the players along the opposite side of the lane for violations, cheap elbow fouls, etc.? I believe the current Fed. mechanics, and NCAA-W, for that matter, is to have the C step onto the court from the sideline about 6 feet, and up almost even with the top of the key. That gives them the good look across the paint and at the shooter.

This way, the L should watch the opposite side of the lane from them, the C should watch the shooter and the other side, and the T gets all the other players that aren't on the lane. As j51969 posted, it sounds like the C was way too far down.

Jerry Blum Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Sometimes I think I'm the only one who does this. Since it's in the mechanics, I'll keep it up until I'm told by my assigner to stop. :)


Are you talking about the visible 10 sec count? If so I agree it is supposed to be done. At least in High School. I do it every time. And like Snaqwells said I will keep doing it until I'm told differently or they change the rules.

By the way my visible count is me opening and closing my outside hand down by my side.

bob jenkins Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcarter
I also noticed that, it was either this game or the Duke Holly Cross game I was flipping back and fourth and cant remeber now, Anyway, one of the officials was doing a visable count for the 10 second count on a free throw.

Is it different in the colledge ranks that they do this? I dont work those levels im just starting to work high school but, it was just something I noticed.

It's supposed to be visible (just a "hand flick" or "opn and close the hand") in FED and NCAAM, not visible in NCAAW.

rockyroad Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Who watches the players along the lane? If the C is where it was described, how can they watch the players along the opposite side of the lane for violations, cheap elbow fouls, etc.? I believe the current Fed. mechanics, and NCAA-W, for that matter, is to have the C step onto the court from the sideline about 6 feet, and up almost even with the top of the key. That gives them the good look across the paint and at the shooter.

This way, the L should watch the opposite side of the lane from them, the C should watch the shooter and the other side, and the T gets all the other players that aren't on the lane. As j51969 posted, it sounds like the C was way too far down.

JIm, we don't watch opposite sides in NCAA-W anymore...L is in close-down on last shot and watches strong-side rebounding and C has weak-side rebounding, so the old watch across isn't really applicable anymore...

M&M Guy Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad
JIm, we don't watch opposite sides in NCAA-W anymore...L is in close-down on last shot and watches strong-side rebounding and C has weak-side rebounding, so the old watch across isn't really applicable anymore...

Uh oh. :o

When did that change? (Please say this year...) When I was at one camp this past summer, I saw a clinician rip a camper for not watching across the lane and missing an obvious violation. Now I purposely left off watching the top player on your side as C, etc., but I was just trying to point out where the C was described is not really a good spot to be.

I do agree once the shot is released, primaries change. Is that what you meant?

Raymond Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Uh oh. :o

When did that change? (Please say this year...)

I don't have my CCA manual, but I believe that applies to NCAA-M also. 'C' watches free-thrower and players on his side of the lane, 'L' watches players on his side.

Even though in my Men's JuCo game Saturday I (as 'C') called a lane violation on A2 on the opposite side of the lane from me. The observer didn't say anything to me after the game.

All_Heart Thu Dec 07, 2006 02:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
I don't have my CCA manual, but I believe that applies to NCAA-M also. 'C' watches free-thrower and players on his side of the lane, 'L' watches players on his side.

Even though in my Men's JuCo game Saturday I (as 'C') called a lane violation on A2 on the opposite side of the lane from me. The observer didn't say anything to me after the game.

This is correct. The Men's mechanic is watch the players on the lane closest to you. I recently read it in the CCA manual.

rockyroad Thu Dec 07, 2006 03:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Uh oh. :o

When did that change? (Please say this year...) When I was at one camp this past summer, I saw a clinician rip a camper for not watching across the lane and missing an obvious violation. Now I purposely left off watching the top player on your side as C, etc., but I was just trying to point out where the C was described is not really a good spot to be.

I do agree once the shot is released, primaries change. Is that what you meant?

OK...I will say it changed this year if that makes you feel better! :D

Actually, it did...I had to change that on my pre-game conference sheet...not sure why, and I don't like it much, but it is what it is.

M&M Guy Thu Dec 07, 2006 03:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad
OK...I will say it changed this year if that makes you feel better! :D

Actually, it did...I had to change that on my pre-game conference sheet...not sure why, and I don't like it much, but it is what it is.

Ok, dang it. Now you gonna make me go home and read the manual again.

So, let me get this straight - is the C's position still the same, inside the arc and even with the top of the key?

Mwanr1 Thu Dec 07, 2006 03:35pm

I always thought the "C" should start around the midway point of the semi-circle and stepped down on the release to move closer to the play. While position below the free-thrower, C's closing in may distract the free-thrower.

Any input on this?

rockyroad Thu Dec 07, 2006 04:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Ok, dang it. Now you gonna make me go home and read the manual again.

So, let me get this straight - is the C's position still the same, inside the arc and even with the top of the key?

Yep...and still step down and all that. But C now has the weak-side rebound coverage same as on a "regular" shot...

My supervisor has always taught the "half-way, half-way" position for C...IOW, half-way between the sideline and lane line, and half-way between top of circle and free-throw line.

HawkeyeCubP Thu Dec 07, 2006 04:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins
It's supposed to be visible (just a "hand flick" or "opn and close the hand") in FED and NCAAM, not visible in NCAAW.

Someone may want to mention that to Steve Welmer.

HawkeyeCubP Thu Dec 07, 2006 05:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcarter
I also noticed that, it was either this game or the Duke Holly Cross game I was flipping back and fourth and cant remeber now, Anyway, one of the officials was doing a visable count for the 10 second count on a free throw.

Is it different in the colledge ranks that they do this? I dont work those levels im just starting to work high school but, it was just something I noticed.

As others have mentioned, this is still a Fed mechanic:

Official's Manual
#240-f. (Two Person Mechanics) The Trail official checks the position of the thrower's feet and begins the visible count (wrist flick).
#350-f. (Three-Person Mechanics) The Center official checks the position of the thrower's feet and begins the visible count (wrist flick).

tomegun Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP
Someone may want to mention that to Steve Welmer.

Oh boy! :rolleyes:

Mark Dexter Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP
Someone may want to mention that to Steve Welmer.

Steve's a couple of feet taller than I am. I'm not mentioning anything he may be doing incorrectly (EDIT: mechanics-wise) to him!

M&M Guy Sat Dec 09, 2006 02:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad
OK...I will say it changed this year if that makes you feel better! :D

Actually, it did...I had to change that on my pre-game conference sheet...not sure why, and I don't like it much, but it is what it is.

Ok, I had to bring this up again to help with my confusion.

First off - rocky, you made me pull out my mechanics manual, and the one I have still shows the C has responsibility for the top two, opposite lane spots, as well as the top spot on the same side, and the shooter. The L has the bottom spot on the same side, and the bottom two spots on the opposite side. I only mention this as the pre-shot responsibilities; after the shot hits the rim, I agree the C covers the same side for rebounding action. Are we talking about the same things? Or was there a change that happened after this year's manual came out?

Again, I was responding to the OP, where he mentioned it looked like the C was WAY down, halfway between the FT line and baseline. My comment was at that position it would be very hard to see any lane violations. Now, since then, I have watched a few games and have not seen that mechanic. Now I'm wondering if perhaps j51969 was confused by the angle of the TV cameras. It does look a little like from the angle of the center court camera that the C is farther down.

Or, perhaps, it just gave the C a better look at the cheerleaders? ;)


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