Lodged ball?
 

What is the ruling on a lodged ball on the Free throw? I know in play it is a alternating posession and on a throw-in it is a violation but I wasn't sure tonight about a free throw lodged ball. Thanks for the help in advance.

It depends on the FT that is being attempted. If it is the first of 2 or 3 FTs, then it is simply a missed shot. You would go the AP on any FT that can be rebounded.

Peace

Well then I kicked that one then. I called it a violation. What about a player grabbing the rim at halftime. Is it a T on the player and an indirect to the coach or what? It is so hard to keep up when you are trying to remember three different rulesets. I know in the pros and college it is an indirect to the player which does not add to his foul count nor the team foul count, but I can't remember what it is for HS and I lost my rulebook recently.

So don't keep track of 3 different rulesets!! If you're working NBA, you're not allowed to do anything else, so you don't need college and NF. If you're working college plus NF, just keep track of those two.

in NF the player grabbing the rim during halftime is a T on the player, and an indirect on the coach. If you see it. Perhaps you didn't call it because you were carefully focusing on your aunt Matilda who was waving to you from the stands behind the basket there.

Not true. You are still allowed to work anything you want if you work in the WNBA and the NBA D-League. Don't forget about semi-pro and pro-ams in the summer as well. I have to keep up with these rulesets for now as I work and will be working with all these rules. I hope one day that I will be able to narrow it down to two and then finally down to one, but for now that is how it has to be. Thank you about the dunking during halftime answer as well. I did in fact T up the player but did not seatbelt the coach nor did I tell him that it is an indirect T on him.

Okay, well shows what I know! I guess it's a good thing I only need to know the HS rules, and the local rec league.

Don't take this the wrong way but how can someone be working the d league and/or wnba and NOT know what the ruling is on a wedged ball?

I'll agree that keeping track of the latest T rules every year between ncaa & fed is a pain, which is why I spend 2 or 3 minutes reviewing them during pregame. Maybe you should.

If you work D1 and the D-League and high school (and I know somebody who does this), you probably only work 10 HS games a year to be eligible for the playoffs.

The person who does that is clearly not spending as much time in the HS rulebook as in the other rulesets. Maybe they ought to give up HS in that situation, but that's a personal decision. I can see how it would be fairly easy to think that maybe this is one of those nit-picky rule differences.

Last week I had a free throw rest on the flange.

I find this disagreeable. If you aren't going to work a full HS schedule, don't work the playoffs. Let the people who are dedicated to the game at the high school level work the high school level. You want to be a D1 ref, go be a D1 ref.

Glad to hear that no one charged you.

How'd you get up there?

Edit...thank you :)

If the state athletic association says that you have to work a minimum of 10 varsity games to be eligible for the tournament, and then these guys work 10 varsity games, why would we want to keep them out of a playoff tournament? Because they're not as good as the officials who worked 25-30 games? That's certainly not true. Why would you want to keep a very good college official from working if that official has met the state's minimum requirements?

Yeah, I agree.

To kick 2 pretty basic rules in 1 game is not good.

If you know you don't know the rule let your partner handle it.

errr....maybe because some of them don't know the HS rules well enough?

While I can understand your sentiments, how is this different than a ref who works 10 HS games because their day job has them traveling out-of-town half the season? Would you have the same attititude? The state says 10 is enough, it is none of our business why they only work the minimum. If the state wanted 3-games-per-week HS refs, they'd change the minimum to 20 or more.

Camron, I think what the state actually wants is their HS officials to know the damn rules.

Scrapie seems to believe it's OK if you don't know the rules but look good.

I said 2 things.

1) It's understandable if a college official who works few HS games forgets a rule difference.

2) It makes no sense to keep a college official who works few HS games out of the post-season, solely because he does the minimum number of games required to be eligible.

Those 2 statements do NOT imply that a college official who does not know the most basic NFHS rules should work the HS post-season. Or are you just busting my stones?

Warning - sweeping generalization ahead
It makes sense because they are clearly not dedicated to the high school game. They are only spending just enough time to get the glory of working the playoffs. If they've moved on to the college ranks, move all the way on. Give the playoff spots to officials who are dedicated to working the high school game not the ones dedicated to just good assignments.

Then the state association should change their rules.

You have now moved from saying that this particular official in the original post didn't know the rule to saying that ALL college officials should get out of the high school post-season because they are not dedicated to "the high school game".

Anybody besides me think that doesn't sound quite right?

I'm with you, Scrapper. At least on this. :)

In the pros it is a jump ball between any two players in the game at the center circle.

Are you currently working in both the WNBA and the NBA D-League?

Sorry, my reply (although entered as if in response to your post) was really a reply to Eastshire's assertions regarding working multiple levels and making the HS playoffs.

I'm not so sure that Srapper1 is really suggesting that...just offering a plausable explanation for the error.

Also, why would someone working only 10 games be a reason for not knowing the rules. I know guys that work 40+ games a season that don't know the rules. The number of games worked is at best only remotely connected to knowing the rules.

You think it's right to give post-season assignments to people who only deign to work high school games to the extent that it makes them eligable for the post-season? Rather, shouldn't those assignments go to those individuals who work hard all season in the trenches focusing on the high school game?

Part of the reason getting and retaining new officials is so difficult is because of the lack of opportunities available. Situtations like these where people with interest in nothing but the post-season taking both regular season and post season assignments from other people galls me.

Now, I don't have an issue with someone working a balanced schedule, but at the point where you are only working the minimum to get a tourney assignment for the sole reason of getting the tourney assignment, you should just leave the work to those who are willing to focus on the high school game.

No, but he does work in . . . wait for it . . . the SEC!! :D


(Sorry - I couldn't resist)

LOL.....memory like a dextering elephant! :D

Well geeze scrapolla, the OP claimed he kicked not 1 but 2 easy rules calls in 1 HS game. Then shrugged & mumbled something about life is too rough for us d-league guys to have to bother with keeping HS rules straight. If you don't have the mental capacity to keep your rules straight then take some nights off.

Am I busting your stones? In the context of THIS thread you deserve to get your stones busted if you innocently chime in that working a minimum number of HS games should be sufficient for post season work.

and btw...I don't really believe you think it's understandable for any one person to get *2* rules wrong in *1* game. Not for 1 second do I believe that. I know you much better than that my anonymous friend.

Ahhh, right, of course...and that led you to decide it's a violation in the HS rules. Right.

Understandable.... :rolleyes:

Stop it. There is no plausible explanation for getting 2 (!!!) rules wrong in 1 game. None at all. So you're in favor of officials not knowing the rules?

I'll remember that next time you b!tch someone out for asking to see the latest test answers.

Well the partner I had led me into it. He said that he thought it was a violation like on a throw in and I said yeah you're probably right, but I should have known better.

I've messed up a rule in a game on more than one occassion....and I knew it after I thought about it and reviewed it....and I consider myself highly knowledgeable regarding the rules. It may not happen often but it happens....it may even happen twice in one game.
Hardly...just that the number of games worked and the other levels the official works have little to nothing to do with no knowing the applicable rules. Either they study the rules and know them or they don't.

Exactly the same as in HS and College rules, a jump ball situation where we use the alternating possession arrow instead.

You must have missed my question.

Are you currently working both in the WNBA and the NBA D-League? That's what you seemed to imply.

Just wondering....

I absolutely agree. I didn't say it was "ok" to miss the rule. I just said that I understand how it happens (especially early in the season) when you're only working 10 or 12 high school games a year. If you were to propose that missing 2 rules in one game should disqualify you from high school post-season work, I'm not sure that I would disagree. But I think you might disqualify more "high school" officials than "college" officials.

I never said that. I said that working the minimum number of HS games should NOT be a sufficient reason for being excluded from post-season work.

I don't think it's acceptable. But I understand how it might happen. I would have no problem with an assignor pulling high school games from a "college" official who can't keep the rulesets straight.

That's all I needed to hear from you - we agree it's bad for anyone to miss 2 easy rules calls in a game.

The side issue which you brought up about college officials working the minimum number of HS games so they can take playoff spots away from the guys who work 30+ HS games a year is not worth arguing. It happens and is going to continue to happen. But I don't accept that as an excuse for the OP not knowing the rules.

[QUOTE=Eastshire]You think it's right to give post-season assignments to people who only deign to work high school games to the extent that it makes them eligable for the post-season? Rather, shouldn't those assignments go to those individuals who work hard all season in the trenches focusing on the high school game?

[QUOTE]

So you think it's right to give post season games to someone just because they work lots of HS games - regardless of how good an official (or bad) they might be? Some of those "in the trenches" and "foucusing on the HS game" are there because they aren't good enough to do anything else and the HS groups need bodies...so we should pass up an official who is very good because he/she only did a certain number of games, and give that play-off spot to someone who might be not as good an official? Howinthehell does THAT help the game any??

No I do not and if I did I would not tell anybody, for the mere fact that I have read previous post of men who are now in the D-League and/or NBA and their reception was not to kind what so ever, even though everything they said was pretty much dead on.

No, to people who are good and work a lot of high school games. It doesn't help the game to bring in ringers from the college game to call high school. Not all of the good officials work college ball. Not all of the good officials want to work college ball. Plenty of good officials are happier to toil away in the high school ranks.

It's a high school assignment. Give it to a high school official. By all means give it to a good high school official, but don't give it to a college officials. College officials aren't the demi-gods of refereeing they are treated like; they are just the guys that are willing to give up more family time to the game than the high school guys.

Relax my friend, take it easy.

Bullsh!t...so if I worked 14 HS games last year and 30 college games then I shouldn't get any HS post-season because I didn't concentrate ONLY on HS ball??? That makes no sense, and quite frankly sounds like the frustrated rantings of someone who got passed over for a HS post-season assignment that went to an official who also works college ball...

Let's see. When was the last time I was treated like a demi-god? Was it at the juco game where I changed with the players? Nooooo. Was it at the D3 school where I was locked out of the locker room for 20 minutes before the game? Nooooooo. Maybe it was the game where I had to walk a quarter-mile and up 3 flights of stairs from the locker room to the gym floor. Nooooo. Not there, either.

Eastshire, if I'm wrong, I apologize in advance, but I'm sensing a lot of hostility in your posts about college offcials. We're not trying or claiming to be demi-gods. But I also don't expect to be discriminated against simply because I've worked my butt off to get better and move beyond the HS ranks.

I was just wondering because you said that you had to keep up with all the rulesets because you would be working all of them. I kinda got the impression from your post too that the vast majority of your games were played under pro and NCAA rules, and that's why you knew those rules so much better. Musta misunderstood you.

Just for the record, and you certainly don't have to answer, are most of your games currently NCAA university games or semi-pro games, seeing that you've gone past the high school level? Just wondering which one of those you do more of.

One of my best friends and mentors has a double digit D1 schedule plus various other college assignments yet he's still willing to jump in the car with me to drive 200 miles one-way for a $75 JuCo game. And he still works an average of 2 HS games a week.

But by your logic he shouldn't work post-season HS assignments just because his number 1 allegiance is to his college supervisors? That makes no sense to me at all.

Sounds like to me you could not cut it at the college level and you are drawing some serious generalizations about something you have little understanding about.

First of all a HS official is someone who works HS games. A college official is someone who works college games. Neither has anything to do the amount of games or percentage of an entire schedule.

Also you obviously do not know a lot about people who work college games officials. Not all college officials are struggling to fit in family time. Not all official have a wife/husband, 5 kids and a dog. Some people have jobs would not interfere in any way with what their kids are doing or their officiating.

It is just clear you are bitter about something and it is showing with this topic.

Peace

Hey, Eastshire...

Are you suggesting that the kids don't deserve the best refs that can be put on the floor for the playoffs? Is this game about us, or about them? :confused:

No, I am saying that college refs aren't the best refs for the high school game. There are exceptions (like the example given of an official who is working 2 high school games a week, give that man a playoff assignment). No, what grinds my gears are the ones who think they deserve the plum assignments just because they work college ball and have put in the minimum effort to be eligible.

And for the record, I don't even work varsity HS ball yet. I'm still in the trenches gladly working everything from 7th grade to JV. Even in the sports where I do regularly work varsity I haven't applied to work the postseason because I am early in my career and still learning.

The biggest problem is the mindset that I see that a person who works college is automatically better than a person who works high school and it simple is not (always) true.

And almost as dangerous is the mindset that someone who works college ball can't adjust to the different rulesets and mechanics and do a good job officiating a HS play-off game...

I'm sure there are some who may think that. But I think there are very few who think that ALL college officials are better than ALL high school officials.

Seems to me you're carrying an awfully big axe for an awfully small problem.

What is your definition of a college official?

If you did work varsity games, you might get the opportunity to work with officials that have that experience and see the difference between different levels of officials.

I would not at all say they are automatically better, but I would say by officials that work some college have been through a little more training than the average HS official. I do not know what any of this has to do with why people can work a HS playoff game or not?

Peace

What is your basis for this statement? In my experience, every time I have moved up a level it's because a) I've gained a certain level of mastery of the level I'm at, which has "qualified" me to move up and b) After working at the higher level for a while and coming back, the lower level is easier to work. Having become used to the speed and strength of the play at the higher level, the lower level appears slower, and becomes easier to call. I come back with greater confidence, having had some success at a higher level. I come back with some added perspective too. Being exposed to multiple levels of play has broadened my horizons. You see things you might not otherwise see, experience philosophies you wouldn't otherwise consider. It tends to make you a more well-rounded official than working just a single level. While not every college official is better than every HS official, working higher levels would definitely tend to qualify you MORE to work lower levels.

News flash: Many of them DO deserve the plum assignments. The work and effort they have put in over the years has made them some of the best officials for the job. It is almost certainly what propelled them into the ranks of the college officials. They may have only worked 10 HS games this year, but that has little to do with whether they are the best qualified officials to work the playoffs.

The kids who play in the playoffs deserve the best refs that can be provided. The game is about them; we just get to be a part of it. Both for the kids, and to cover their own butts, the assigners who assign playoff games want to put officials on the floor who have a proven track record of successfully handling big games. Put yourself in the assigner's shoes: who do you assign the big game to? The guy who has never worked a big game? Obviously not. The guy who has successfully worked slightly smaller big games? Not a bad option. The guy who has successfully (and regularly) worked bigger games? Best option. And where do you find guys like that? Well, there are quite a few of them working college ball.

It seems to me that your biggest problem is that you covet the big game and don't want to have to compete with college officials to get it. You seem to have a mindset of us v. them, which is absurd because, as has already been pointed out, who exactly are us and who exactly are them? In many places it's one large pool of officials and the college assigner gets first shot while the HS assigner gets the left-overs.