Another Back Court Question
 

A1 has the ball in front court along baseline. A1 gets trapped & throws a long pass towards A2 at the division line. B2 TIPS ball then A2 TIPS the ball. Ball goes into backcourt. A2 retrieves the ball. Do you have a backcourt violation? I guess the real question is.......does the tip by B2 cause a loss of A’s team control?

The tip by B2 does not mean a loss oteam control. Therefore.....back court violation.See case book plays 4.12COMMENT

If A2 was in the frontcourt, it is a violation. Tip by B did not cause loss of team control.

That's what I thought, but I didn't have my books to verify. Thanks for the input.

Once team control is established, it is lost only on:

• A dead ball
• A try
• When the other team gains control

And, of course, the other team only gains control when one of their players is holding or dribbling a live ball in-bounds.

I believe that the NBA rule is different from the NCAA and NFHS ruling for this play. I think that in the NBA team control does end on the touch by B2 and therefore this is not a backcourt violation. That may well be the source of much misunderstanding at the NCAA and NFHS levels.

From the NBA's website.

So the play in question is not a backcourt violation in the NBA, but IS a violation under NFHS and college rules.

And yet if Team A is the last to touch the ball in the front court even if B tips it then I got a BC violation. I gotta look for the reference but don't have my book handy. So I might be wrong.

You're right. That's exactly what everybody else has said so far btw.

Thanks , I concluded from scrappers response that there would not be a BC call since no team control after B tipped the ball. If the balll had gone into the backcourt after B tipped it then A went to recover I would not call a violation. That was who my response was to.

Scrapper was talking about it not being a back court violation under NBA rules <b>only</b>, which is correct afaik. Iow, if you were just responding to Scrapper, then you did have it wrong.

Jurrassic is right about my previous post. It was meant to apply to NBA rules only. I've edited that post to make it clearer.

You learn something everyday...now I know the source of the belief (by more than 1 HS player/coach) that a defensive tip absolves the offense of a subsequent backcourt violation.

Thanks, Scrapper.

So your saying even if B deflects the ball into the backcourt and then A goes to get it there should be a BC violation? That is where I am missing something.

Here's the scenario we're seeing here. A1 has the ball in the front court and attempts a pass to A2. B1 deflects (tips) the pass towards the back court. Before it crosses over, A3 (standing in the front court) tips it in an attempt to grab it. A3 then chases the ball into the back court. This is a violation in HS and college, as team control never ended and A was the last to touch the ball in the front court as well as the first to touch it after the ball went into the back court.

No one is questioning this scenario. I ask if A did not touch the ball again after B tipped it until the ball was clearly in the back court, would you still have a violation?

Nope. Not me.

As a second year HS ref, this has been the source of endless confusion for me. I worked the Show-Me State games in Columbia, MO over the summer and watched what I thought were multiple BC violations go uncalled by more experienced officials (one worked state championship game a couple of years ago). When I asked, one told me that the defense had last touched the ball, so the offense could go into their BC and re-establish control with no penalty.

So, I'm at my mechanics clinic this fall and ask the head man giving the clinic how this could be...since team control doesn't end on an interrupted dribble. He essentially told me what I thought before...it doesn't matter if the defense tips it away or not, team control doesn't change and it's a violation for the offense to retrieve the ball from BC.

Yet, I have hardly worked a game at any level (JH, freshman, or rec league) where some coach or fan thinks the NBA version is the only correct version. I rarely watch NBA, so now I see where the source of some of the confusion originates.

4 Requirements:

1) A has Team Control
2) The ball reaches the FC
3) A is the last to touch before the ball goes to the BC
4) A is the first to touch after the ball goes to the BC

3 Exceptions for airborne players

1) Jump Ball
2) Throw In
3) Defense

Since the mechanics clinic, I have learned the hard way that I was making incorrect calls. I can only guess that I misunderstood the answer I was given at the time. There is absolutely no substitute for floor experience...especially when you're working with the right kind of partner.

Sure, thank Scrapper. :mad:

OK, OK, my mistake....thank Nevadaref for mentioning the difference and Scrapper for documenting it!!

Fell better? ;)

:) <extra text>

I doubt he fell better, but he may feel better.

Right call, slightly wrong explaination. The offensive team is not "re-establishing control" in this situation, as they never lost team control. The reason this is not a backcourt violation is that the rule requires the offense be the last to touch it in the frontcourt if a violation is to be called.

He's right, team control hasn't ended, but it doesn't mean a violation has occured. There are basically two similar, but distinct, scenarios:

Version 1 - Ball in offensive posession in frontcourt, defensive tip (in either frontcourt or backcourt), offense touches ball in backcourt - no violation.

Version 2 - Ball in offensive posession in frontcourt, defensive tip, offensive touch (tip or control) IN FRONTCOURT, offensive touch in backcourt - violation.

The problem comes in that people see the defensive touch in #2 and think that the offense is subsequently absolved of any and all backcourt violations.

Trust me; you're not alone.