Pre-game warm-ups question - Full Court Warm-Up
 

NFHS and NCAA Please

Are there any rules against using the entire court by a team to warmup if another team isnt present?

Could be a state by state thing I suppose. Anyone from Ohio - if you know of anything specific to Ohio, let me know.

I do not think this is actually addressed by either organization. My suggestion is to leave it alone unless you have a specific directive from a conference, state or organization.

Peace

Somebody has to ask it. If there's only one team there, who are they going to play? :confused:

Totally agree. I'd leave it alone myself. I was asked by a guy on the crew to post the question to see if anyone has seen anything in print anywhere on the matter.

It came up last night at an area high school varsity game. The home team's players vacated the floor and went to the locker room. The visitors started to run some full court warm ups and someone from the home team (asst coach?) complained to the refs suggesting this was not a legal practice.

Doesnt matter what they did last night but we are looking for the correct info if any on the matter.

See NFHS rule 4-5-2. That <b>specifies</b> that each team's basket for practise before the game is the one <b>farther</b> from it's team bench. There was also a POE for a couple of years in a row starting in 2002-03 that covered pre-game situations. That POE pretty much said that the FED wanted the teams to stay in their own end, just in case.

Yup. I know in IL it was addressed last year by Mr. Gibson.

Well, whatinthehell did Mr. Gibson say? And who is Mr. Gibson?:confused:

Inquiring minds need to know!

Yeah, but this was dealing more with both teams being present on the floor. If one team goes to the locker room, that is another issue. I think Larks is specifically asking about teams running a 3 on 2 full court drills that you commonly see.

Also in Illinois they had no problem with teams running around the court as long as they did not interfere with the other team's warm-up. They also said in the meetings I attended that this applied to both teams being on the floor. It was kind of implied we were not go overboard and use some common sense.

Peace

Here is the entire section of the POE that JR mentioned. As you can see the NFHS made some SUGGESTIONS, but ultimately left this issue up to the state associations.

2003-04 POINTS OF EMPHASIS

1. Sporting Behavior
...

B. Pre-game Situations: The committee believes this area of concern saw improvement last year, when it was first introduced as a Point of Emphasis. However, the committee felt this area was worth repeating to encourage continued diligence. Teams are deliberately running through or disrupting the opponent's pre-game warm-up. Teams are also competing for the center circle when entering the court or following player introductions.
Suggestions for improved behavior:
• The state or local athletic conference should establish appropriate pre-game procedures and protocols. A policy could be established confining teams to their own free-throw semi-circle for pre-game huddles or rituals or that only the home team utilizes the center circle.
• Coaches should take an active role and establish guidelines for their teams and permit only those pre-game rituals that promote sporting behavior and cannot be interpreted as taunting or baiting the opponent.
• Officials should be prepared to assess a technical foul to a team member/team demonstrating these unsporting acts. The specific inappropriate actions of a few team members may be individually penalized or the entire team may be assessed one technical foul, if they collectively engage in any inappropriate behavior(s). Since all team members are considered bench personnel before the game and during intermissions, the head coach would also be charged indirectly with the technical foul (10-4-1d; 2-8-1).

Lol - I almost posted the same thing.....

? "Is there a rule?" ......"Yes.....Yes there is"

Hey JR - I read 4.5.2. It does say specify opposite basket to the bench....I am sure they put that in so that it was clear where team should go. Correct me if I am wrong my tenured friend....didnt the visitors used to have their choice which end they wanted to warm up?

My point is, isnt the intent of 4.5.2 more to designate an end...it doesnt specify you cant use the entire court if the other teams isnt out there is my point. Also, wasnt that last POE more talking about teams circling the other team during warmups or high fiving at half court during intros.....

When in doubt.....

E-mail Henry Zaborniak Jr. at OHSAA and ask him.

[email protected]

He'll probably tell you what to do.

Don't listen to me and the other dickheads posting here.:D Go to the horse's mouth.

Exactly....

Well.....yeah - thats probably the next step.

I think that Bob will be coming along shortly, and then you're going to get deleted, you're going to get deleted, you're going to get deleted. :p

Do the deletes apply to quotes?

Next time....use "Richard Craniums" !!

He is in charge of (boys) basketball in Illinois.

Right, what I got out of it is that he said they could come out of their locker room like that, however once they were on the floor they had to stay at their end. It didn't matter if the other team went back down to their locker room or not.

That was not the impression we were given, but then again I was not at a meeting where Kurt ran a meeting. I believe I attended meetings that Harry Bohn (head clinician and rules interpreter in the State of Illinois) and John Dacey. Unless they want to put it in writing, I am not going to stop any team from doing so.

As it relates to the NCAA level, I know of no discussion that says this is illegal and no one has shown this as an issue yet.

Peace

For those that don't know, JR's real name is Richard Cranium. :eek:

D@mn. You beat me to it!

Jeff,

If I remember correctly, I believe it was a bulletin released around late January/early February. It was released because the office wanted it to come to a stop (if it was happening) before the post-season started. I'll see if I can locate it.

I do not remember any bulletin about that and I worked in the post season. I know this would have been something we talked about. Then again it would not be the first time things were said differently at different rules meetings. I do not remember this being made an issue by outside of the rules meetings. I also work games for Harry and have attended his camp the last few years and I have never heard him talk about this in any way.

Peace

Iow, <b>no</b> warming up at both ends ever. Correct?

Correct. I'm still trying to find the document that concerns Illinois.

who cares?!?!?!? when the team returns to the floor, just make sure there are no problems between players and start the game. there is no advantage gained by either team! c'mon people, use a little common sense here.

C'mon Jeff, use a little common sense here. DOn't you know that "common sense" just doesn't cut it in reffing? If what looks like common sense to me looks like an idiotic, childish decision to my assignor, then I"m out the door and down the block in my reffing career. The first question always has to be, what should I do according to the rules that I"ve agreed to enforce. Whether or not that makes sense to me is irrelevant.

Jeff,
For the areas that have such a ruling in place and for the officials whose supervisors want them to enforce it, it matters. If this happens and one of the bigwigs is present, it could make the difference between being selected for the postseason or not.

Soooo....if you live in an area with bigwigs who expect you to do something a particular way then I would say you should feel free to do things the way the bigwigs want them done. It's not that hard, is it?

SoCal -- Orange county at least does not allow a team to run around the whole court when the opponents are present. As for if no one was using the other side of the court I would have no problem with a team using it. When the other team comes out those kids will make it back to their side and you wont have to remind them.

I am going to have to disagree with you adamantly about this. This is not something that is going to change the game. Maybe in places this was a problem. It also makes me think there are officials out there who cannot handle simple situations either; this is why this rule was even made an issue. I have never had this become a problem nor do I anticipate any kind of problem. And we are not even talking about something that was specifically addressed. Now we are talking about the absurd. The purpose of the rule was to prevent teams from interfering with the other team's warm-up. The purpose was not to worry about what a team does when the other completely leaves the floor. Even in my state they gave the opportunity for home team to go to center court and do some kind of pre-game ritual. If we enforce the rules the way you suggest, it should be an automatic T for anytime a player goes to the other team’s huddle during introductions to shake the hands of the head coach and officials which is extremely common in these parts.

Peace

JR this is how I look at things and I get blasted here -- many POE's are guidelines for those that cannot handle simple situations. Most games are filled with simple situations its the tough situations that define a good official (judgement helps too).

game management to me is not how do I apply the rules as strictly as I can -- but rather how can I work with both coaches and the table in the confines of the rules where the game can be enjoyable and fair. One of my pet pevees -- because the coaching box and the fashion guidelines were huge POE's in our association this year -- is that the refs I work with only focus on THAT --

me: partner lets go meet the coaches
Partner: ok
Parnter: coach just want to mention that your have a 6 foot box and we don't want you out of it. Also make sure your players report to the table with uniforms tucked in, etc. blah blah blah.

Right there we have already lost our ability to work with the coach.

if it were me

Coach my name is _____ and this is my partner ______. good luck if you have any questions now is the best time to ask them. by the way coach we will need your help as we have been told that bench decorum is being addressed more this year than in years past and if you could please keep all movement in your coaches box. (if one isnt drawn out just request that he keeps his movement to about 4 chairs -- usually the first 4 on the bench). And that he can be the only one standing and addressing us.

simple little meeting and now the coach feels as though we WANT to work with him. You and I can say the samething but get completly different responses -- I make it seem like what the coach will be doing is voluntary by asking him nicely you on the other hand will be ordering him and right off the bat we will have a confrontational game.

If I say anything, I just remind the coach about the emphasis on the coaches' box so "if you're going to yell at us, please do it from the box". That usually gets a smile. Of course, I don't use that on everyone, you have to know your audience.

How can you work "in the confines of the rules"when you advocate <b>ignoring</b> the rules?

I look at it sometimes as more of a case of an official not having the balls to follow a POE and instead wanting to be Mr. Nice Guy to everybody, and thus is looking for any reason at all to use anything as an excuse for <b>not</b> enforcing the rules properly.

I's say that we have a big difference in philosophy.

Larks - just another Richard Cranium opinion-
While there is nothing that specifically says you can not use the full court - I would think it is implied by the rule stating you should warm-up at the basket furthurest from your bench - it doesn't say you can use the other basket too.

The POE keeping teams seperate would be sufficient in my book to prevent the full court warm up - I would not penalize any one for doing it I would just stop it as soon as it started.

It used to be maybe 20 years ago that if you circled the court during a warm up it was a technical foul.

All in All I would not let it happen it just begs for a problem to occur.
With that said Hank will come back and tell me I am completely threaded in my opinion.

You make it sound like an either/or thing. Why isn't game management both (1) applying the rules AND, (b) working with coaches and table? In my association, I have to do things the way my assignor wants them done. The POE's are not just guidelines for those that cannot handle simple situations. In my association, if I don't take the POE's seriously (at least the ones that my assignor cares about), I don't get good games. I also have to work with coaches and the talbe to be sure that the game is enjoyable and fair. I have to do both. That's what the good refs around here do. They work strictly within the rules, and they manage the game to keep it enjoyable and fair. It may be different in your area, but don't make it sound like everyone should do it your way, or else they're just idiots. Some of us are smart enough to know which side of the bread has the butter on it.

Jeff, you're exaggerating. The situation we're talking about here is one particular thing, and has nothing to do with a player shaking hands with the coach during introductions. There's nothing anywhere in the rule book about that situation.

I'm just saying that for Jeffpea to say "use common sense" isn't a very helpful comment. My common sense tells me that I couldn't care less about shirts tucked in. But it's a rule I strictly enforce, because my assignor tells me to, and that's how it's done in my area. I don't like it, but it's in the book and it's important to my schedule. Common sense just doesn't come into it, at all. It may be that some folks can afford to be a little flexible about certain rules in their area. Fine. But those folks can't just shake off my legalistic concerns by saying "use common sense." It's just not useful.

The rule is to prevent teams from crossing the division line before the game. I can think of a couple of situations where I would never get all worked up because that took place (e.g.: ball getting away, team running to the locker room)

Maybe the comment is not helpful to you, but I think his comments were right on. Either you can decide to penalize every infraction no matter how technical it is. Or you can use a little bit of common sense and realize that the rules were not created to prevent what we were talking about. Remember there is not a team on the floor. Why would you make an issue out of this when one team is not at all around? This is a great way to get on everyone's good side before the game. Now you will be expected to enforce every other minor infraction that a coach can think they see. Do you call a dunk before the game that fits the literal definition or do you quietly tell the player to knock it off? There is a lot of flexibility with this rule and no one has shown where it was against the rules for a team to practice on both ends with no team available.

Peace

Again with the either/or.

There are lots, and lots, and lots of other possibilities. Please credit me with a little intelligence. Nothing is ever either this or that and those are the only choices.

I'm not saying everything has to be "penalized...no matter how technical it is." I'm saying that a person needs to include in their judgment, not only how the situation feels at a certain moment, but also the larger context of the association, and their general way of handling things, and the state variations and so on and so forth. Around here this particular rule is enforced a certain way. I need to take that into account when I decide what to enforce and what not to.

I'm saying my personal "common sense" isn't the only factor that should weigh into a situation, and in fact that it sometimes shouldn't weigh in at all. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with my common sense, just that it's not always the best "guideline" for how to handle a certain situation.

Unless there is a specific directive from an assignor or evaluator, I am not going to enforce the rule based on what we have been talking about. I think that is being overly officious and not using very good common sense. I think common sense has to be used because it is clear to me that was not the purpose of the rule. Now that is my opinion and I am sticking to it. ;)

Peace

Rainmaker -- I have two children - 7 & 4; while I do not have a hard and fast rule that says - "you cannot wear hats in the house", I generally would prefer that they don't wear them inside. When my 4yr old insists that he wants to wear his winter ski hat to bed, I choose NOT to incite or create a big problem by forcing him to take it off (and possibly imposing some sort of punishment); instead I simply let him wear it....you know why?....because after 5 minutes he'll get hot and take it off - no harm, no foul.

When the opposing team decides to use the entire court during the pre-game warm-up period, I choose not to worry about it because I know that when the opponent returns to the floor, everything will return to normal (Team A on their side and Team B on their end). I have NO IDEA if there is a rule prohibiting the use of the full court, but even if there was - I would use common sense (or judgement) and avoid punishing one team for something that has no effect on the outcome of the game.....BEFORE you start taking this to the extreme - of course I follow the rules and officiate the game the way the rules require.

You want a specific example of common sense not being utilized that created a problem in a game? Visiting team's coach calls an early TO (after being down 12-2 to start the game). Neither my partner, who heard the request, nor me or our third partner saw a specific "full" or "30 second" signal. After the calling official asked 3 or 4 times which TO they wanted (and getting no repsonse), he awarded a full TO - which is probably what most people would do and probably what most assignors would want. The visiting team were all standing on the court around their coach (typicall of a :30 TO) and ready to play after approx. :30. When the visiting coach found out that he was charged w/ a full TO and not the :30 TO that he wanted, he went nuts and ultimately ended up w/ a T. So instead of using common sense and waiting a few extra seconds to see whether the players were seated on the bench (as during a full TO) or huddled around the coach on the court (as during a :30 TO), my partner gave a full TO which ultimately led the T....and their was 17:33 left in the first half!

Now you tell me, was it better to follow the "rule book" or use common sense? Seems pretty clear to me that the use of common sense would have avoided the train wreck that ensued and would have provided for a better overall game.

You lost me with that one. If I ask 3 or 4 times if the coach wants a full or 30 second timeout and I get no response, I give them a full timeout. You've got to be kidding if you think I'm going to stand there and watch whether kids are standing or sitting so I can "avoid a train wreck" I already tried to avoid by cordially asking 2 or 3 times more than I should have had to in the first place. Some teams stand for a full timeout as well. I don't see your example as common sense at all. I see it as nonsense.

You ask THREE or FOUR times, and the goof just ignores you? Of <b>course</b>, you're going to charge him with a full time-out.

There's a big difference between common sense and not having the testicular fortitude to enforce the rules. What you're advocating sureasheck isn't "common sense" imo.

Ask <b>THREE</b> or <b>FOUR</b> freaking times and <b>still</b> get no answer? How long were you prepared to wait before you decided to tell the bench what kind of TO it was? The players don't <b>have</b> to sit on the bench during a 60-second TO, you know.

Lah me......:rolleyes:

What is this "coaches' box" that you speak of? I think it's a mythical being -- like Dan_ref's hair or Jurrassic's sense of humor.

(I think I've read that somewhere before. . .)

What is this "Jur<font color = red>r</font>assic that you speak of? I think it's a mythical being, like Chuck Elias.
http://www.sodamnfunny.com/Picture/Animal/photo7.jpg

I'm willing to wait the 10 extra seconds that it may take to determine whether the coach wants a full or :30 TO before I signal the timer to start the "timeout clock". Why cause problems when you don't need to? You know he wants the timeout, just slow down and figure out which one....this isn't rocket science. What does it cost me to wait - 10 seconds? If a guy deserves a T then give it to 'em, but this is a simple game management problem that can easily fixed by using common sense.

I'm not waiting an extra 10 seconds. I ask only twice, if no response then it's a Full. I pre-game this with my partners. Don't forget, there is another team in the game and they are always waiting anxiously to know what type of time-out it is so they can go about their business.

Ohio Guys....one of the local Cincinnati association secretaries ran it up the flag pole....Here's the Ohio answer:

During pre game warm ups both team A and Team B are shooting at their respective baskets. Team A leaves the floor and returns to the locker room. Team B after all of Team A leaves the floor starts the three man weave full court as part of their warm up. Once Team A returns to the floor Team B stops their full court exercise and goes back to the half court. The question is this legal or illegal.

Per John Dickerson - Asst. Commissioner and State Rules Interp - The Answer is Legal

I had never seen this happen...until tonight. I agreed with Mr. Dickerson.