Team Control Foul Question
 

Both Team A and Team B are in the bonus. A1 is dribbling in the front court when B1 reaches in and bats the ball loose into the lane. In the process of going for the loose ball, A2 fouls B2 prior to any player controlling the ball.

The way I read the rule, this is a team control foul and there should be no free throw. Correct?

This is the one time I feel the team control foul is unfair...

Correct.

JMO, but I think it's perfectly fair. The definition of team control is very clear and this fits the definition. It may seem unfair, just because we're used to seeing the NBA's "loose ball foul"; but the NBA's definition of team control is different from ours.

Team control is still for team A. We (FIBA) have the same rule: no free throws on team control (common) foul.

Is it unfair? I don't know, but the line has to be drawn somewhere: team control is an objective fact. Would you assign free throws based on the distance of the ball from the player who was holding or dribbling it? If more than one meter (sorry, 3 ft :)) would you assign FTs? Then, what about a foul during a pass?

Unfortunately, in situations like this one there are frequent mistakes, when the official only looks at the loose ball and doesn't think to team control. :( Does this happen also there?

Ciao

I'm just getting started again after not officiating for a couple years so it hasn't happened to me yet - but yes, I've seen it happen already here this year in a HS JV game.

You're also right - there's no good way I can think of to differentiate when a "loose ball" foul should be team control and when it shouldn't, unless NFHS went to a specific loose ball foul call.

The NFHS did go to a specific loose ball foul. To call the play correctly, you have to know and understand rule 4-12 completely.

I'll look it up when I get home - guess I'm unclear on this one.

JR is merely telling you that there are times in an NFHS game when the ball is loose and there is no team control. A foul during that time would not be a team control foul and FTs would be awarded if merited.

Wait.

Either the ball is in a team's control or it is not.

I don't see anything at all about a loose ball foul in 4-12. In fact (Nevada) they go out of their way to say a loose ball remains in control of the team that had it last except during a try/tap for goal.

Yeah, I know all that and I'm sure that JR does too. What I wrote is the only reason that I could think of for why he would make that comment.

Perhaps he was just being a smartass, but I know that he understands the rule.

A couple specific situations come to mind:
1> Team control ends when the ball is released on a try/tap for goal. If the try/tap is unsuccessful, then there is no team control until a player from either team gains control of the rebound.
2> On a throw in there is no team control. As above, team control is not established until a player from either team gains player control of the inbounded ball.

In all other situations, team control of a loose ball remains with the team that last had it until either an opponent gains player control or a violation occurs.

Hey, TIm, are you signed up on the OAOA board yet? Let's go over there and start a heated discussion about something, shall we? Got any good subjects we could toss around?

3> During a jump ball, up to the time when control is set by one team or the other.

Thanks! Forgot that one.......yesterday was a long day capped with a pretty sloppy preseason girls game - the kind that makes your brain want to turn to mush.......:o

Yeah, I signed up last week. I checked it a couple times over the weekend, but nothing much there except Jack's initial post.........

Nothing to be unclear about. You just need to know when there is team control and when there is no team control. That will keep you out of trouble.

Here's where I think the team control foul rule is unfair.

Both teams in bonus, just over 1 minute on clock, team A has a 1 point lead.

A1 is dribbling ball in front court. Defender B1 legally bats ball away from A1 into backcourt. Now picture the ball rolling into the backcourt and B1 a step ahead ready to scoop up the ball for an easy lay-up. A1 now in a last ditch effort to get the ball dives in and fouls B1 (not intentionally). So we have a team control foul on A1 and the throw-in is administered at the nearest spot which is probably still 25 feet from the endline.

I think in this case team A profits too much by committing the foul. If A1 doesn't foul here B1 has a lay-up attempt. If A1 fouls a split second after B1 scoops up the ball B1 is at the line.

My personal philosophy here is to really have my antenna up for a possible intentional foul call, but you can't call something that isn't there.

It's not the TC foul you think is unfair, I would say you have a problem with the definition of TC.

I also think they did it to help move the game along too. Get rid of all of the free throws.

I'm with you. I was under the impression from JR's post that there was some specific way for there to be no team control during a loose ball as I described it in the OP, which goes against everything I have studied on team control since coming back to officiating this year. Since I believe he's talking about fouls during a loose ball when there's no team control (during a jump, after a try, or during a throw-in before any player has controlled the ball), I have to disagree that the NFHS has gone to a specific "loose ball" foul.

It was obvious that I was saying a "loose ball" foul call would be some designated exception to the team control foul during a loose ball while team control existed.

You could always submit a rule change suggestion to the NFHS to institute the NBA's "clear-path-to-the-basket" foul. It covers your situation pretty closely.

Or maybe change the definition of team control so that it ends when the defense deflects the ball. I don't think I like that idea, but you could try.

You know what happens when you assume something.

You posted that there was <i>"no good way to differentiate when a loose-ball foul should be team control and when it shouldn't"</i> Well, that's completely wrong imo. My point was that if you want to understand when to call a team-control foul, then you had better know exactly what comprises "team control". To do so, you learn rule 4-12. If you know rule 4-12, then rule 4-19-7 is easily applied. Iow, if you do understand what team-control is, then you <b>know</b> when to differentiate between a team-control foul and a foul with no team control present.

The FED told you <b>exactly</b> how to differentiate the 2 cases when they wrote rule 4-12.

Fair enough, though my response that you quoted was not how to differentiate when it should be called according to the rules as they stand. I understand team control as it is defined in the rule book. What I was responding to was the question by another poster regarding how the rule might be changed to allow a "loose-ball" foul that would be an exception to team control and allow free throws.

I guess my mistake was assuming that others understood the context in which I posted that. Apparently I need to communicate more clearly...damn message boards! :D

This is a play where I'll have a VERY slow whistle. If B1 still gets the ball and is able to head to the basket for the unhindered layup, I will not call the foul at all....even if it looked ugly. If it takes B1 out, foul. Advantage. No good coach will be upset about 2 points on the board instead of 2 FTs. In fact, many will be disappointed if you do call this foul.