Dorky coach
 

Coach last night, complaining about everything. Well, that's nothing new. It was mostly just grumbling, so we ignored it. First half, one exchange involved contact. "There was a lot of contact on that shot.." "Yes, there was." "So why didn't you call it?" "Call what?" (Defender went absolutely straight up, contact was incidental, although it was pretty much full body) "It's a foul!! There're not allowed to have any contact on a shot." "It's incidental contact, coach, it's legal." I left.

Second half. Defender reached across the player with the ball, tipped it away. "That's a reach! That's a reach!" I ignored him. "Ref, you have to call that." "Call what coach?" "THat reach. It's illegal." "No, it's not illegal." "Yes it is, it's a reach." "Show it to me in the rulebook, and I"ll start calling it." "You know the rulebook better than I do, you show me!" I thought that was one of the stupider things that I've heard a coach say.

Later, one of his players fouled out. As soon as the whistle blew, he had the sub at the table. P had made the call, he's reporting, and signals the sub in. Coach says he gets 30 seconds. P backs away. I hopped in and said, "Partner, once the sub is at the table, he doesn't get 30 seconds." Partner looks confused. I stepped into the huddle. "Coach once the sub has reported the game continues. No 30 seconds." "She's not at the table." "She was. She was standing right there." Now he gets snippy. "My goodness you certainly have sharp eyes. You saw that didn't you? You must be proud. And you have seen all the untucked shirts. You have very good eyes." I didn't say anhyting and got the game going. Of course, him losing the game was totally our fault.

Well, you're not asking for advice but here's some of it, free of course -

Later tonight, go into your bathroom at home and shut the door. Then practice touching the tips of the fingers on your right hand lightly on the palm of your left hand. The left hand should be palm down, the right hand pointing upwards. Contact should be made with a graceful, somewhat understated move of both hands towards each other. Once you are comfortable with this motion, work on doing it with a pleasant smile. Use your mirror to perfect this action.

Thanks for the advice, Dan. I have better uses for my bathroom time...

Well, as I said it was free unsolicited advice, you can do with it as you like. It's your choice, just as it's your choice to let some coach kick you around for an hour or so.

Last night the game we were working the coach got whacked, lost his box, etc. Not more than 3 minutes later, I guess he thought he could continue what he was doing before (but without standing). He ended up getting struck again. Simple enough, I guess.

I think that reponse from the coach was fairly predictable; especially since you set him up by asking him to show you the rule book.

Communicating/dealing with coaches is something that I've put on my own "points of emphasis" list for this season. Using neutral phrases like "I understand", "I hear you, coach", or "I'll look for it", do not connote the "I'm right/you're wrong" scenario that only leads to trouble. Of course, you're correct in your assessment of the plays. The interactions you've described only build the frustration level of the coach and the official over the course of the game - ultimately it can lead to a point where you have to T the coach.

I don't post much on this board, but improving game management and communicating with coaches are my goals for this season, so I am going to jump in here.

I respect a lot of what rainmaker says on this board, but I don't like the way this was handled at all.

You set him up here, and it was the root of your issues for the rest of the game. If you are going to speak to a coach, you better know what you are trying to accomplish. You were getting cute here. WE understand that just because there was contact does not mean there was a foul. HE meant (and you know it) that he thought there was a foul on the play.

If I'm a coach, and I say that (again, with the meaning being "my player was fouled"), and you respond "yes there was" but didn't call a foul, I think I'm probably getting screwed, especially if I'm the visiting team, and you have lost a lot of credibility now with that coach, deserved or not.

His STATEMENT needed NO response. If he ASKS, "How is that not a foul?" Then you can respond. "Coach, I saw the defender straight up and the offensive player initiate the contact.

Do NOT issue a challenge to the coach! You have backed him into a corner and you are lucky you got out of this without having to call a technical that you baited him into.

Coach: "That's a reach, that's a reach!
Official: (ignore)
Coach: "You have to call that!"
Official: "What do you think we're not seeing here, coach?"
Coach: "They're reaching in every time we bring the ball up the floor?"
Official: "Coach, I'm not seeing illegal contact by the defender. We will keep looking for it."

If you ask a question like "What do you think that we're not seeing here, coach?", then all you're doing is encouraging more whining from that coach. He's already told you what you're not seeing----> a "reach" by the other team. Personally, at that point I'd recommend a <i>STFU</i>:), or alternatively "We'll watch for it". I don't believe in allowing multiple whines. One whine in a row is enough. Instant replay is <i>verboten</i> imo.

I had a play last night in a boy's varsity game. Home team was attempting a free throw and two players from each team were at the far end of the court so my partner was near the division line and trying to keep on eye on them.

Player missed the FT and the rebound we a little deep. A player from each team went for it and the ball was batted toward the baseline. Home team grabs it and the player is fouled (pushed) going up to lay it in.

After I report the foul, the visiting coach and I have the following brief exchange;

Coach: "Wasn't there contact on the initial rebound attempt?"
Me: "Coach, I saw the players make contact but through that mass of players I couldn't tell who initiated the contact so I passed."
Coach: "Fair enough. I don't want you guessing."

They should all be that easy.

I agree with many of the other posters . . . you baited the coach with your approach and your choice of words. Don't challenge a coach, THEY will always lose that battle and YOU as an official set them up for it . . . HOOK, LINE, and SINKER! You have the ability to handle this situation in many ways, but your approach was not one I would recommend.

Also, don't give coaches ultimatums. Warn them in a professional courteous manner. Give them the stop sign, and let them know that they have been warned, and tell your co-officials immediately that you have warned the coach. If they don't comply, then they should be assessed a direct technical foul for unsporting conduct.

Based on the information you gave, I could see my conversation going something like this:

Coach: "That's a reach! That's a reach!"
Me: "There wasn't any contact coach."
Coach: "Ref, you have to call that."
Me: "Coach, if there isn't any contact, there is nothing I can call."
Coach: "That's a reach. It's illegal."
Me: "Coach, tell me what you saw . . ."
Coach: "I saw the kid reach across his body."
Me: "Coach, as long as the defensive player doesn't create contact, they are not prohibited from reaching across the offensive player's body."
Coach: "So even though he is reaching across my player's body, it is not a foul?"
Me: "Correct, Coach. As long as there is no contact."

And then I am out of there. Of course, that conversation would take place during a T/O or maybe a free throw situation. Otherwise, I do what JR said, "Thank you Coach, we'll look for that."

As for the 30-seconds issue . . . what did your NOT giving the coach his full 30 seconds achieve? Did getting the girl in 10 seconds sooner really accomplish anything? You also said you went over to your partner, which means you had to go across the floor to do so. How much time did that take? Who was watching the other players while you AND your partner were watching the ONE girl getting ready to sub in?

Well, it achieved <b>not</b> giving a coach a <b>free</b> 30-second TO that he's not entitled to have.

The 30-second substitution period is <b>not</b> a time-out, nor was it ever meant to be one. The rules allow a coach 30 seconds <b>or less</b> to make a substitution. Once the substitute has legally entered the game, the substitution period is over.

In this case, I really don't think that it's fair to criticize an official for knowing a rule and how the rule should be applied. The coach <b>should</b> know the rule; if he didn't before, he sureasheck should know it now.

Btw, this was a major POE three years ago. From that POE:
<i>"When the required substitute has reported to the table, the 30-second interval has ended and play shall resume immediately. Therefore, if the substitute reports to the table just after the disqualifying foul is called or reported, there is no 30-second interval necessary or permitted. If the required substitute reports within a few seconds of the 30-seconds permitted, play shall resume immediately".</i>

That's pretty explicit instructions from the FED on how they want this play administered. Locally, we train our officials to all follow that procedure.

JR, you are correct as to the exact enforcement of the rule, and I do agree with you. However, when looking at the context of this situation, and knowing this official and coach were already "at odds" with one another, does it make sense to further press on (especially in game that was a blow out)? I am thinking strictly in the sense of game management (I know, a whole new can of worms). As for the POE, I didn't remember that, but I am glad you brought it to my attention, as I will have to do a better job of enforcing this.

Additionally, the questions I posed are still valid points for consideration:

Did getting the girl in 10 seconds sooner really accomplish anything(other than saving 10 seconds of game time)? You also said you went over to your partner, which means you had to go across the floor to do so (if you were in proper position to begin with). How much time did that take? Who was watching the other players while you AND your partner were watching the ONE girl getting ready to sub in?

As for the coach, he seems to only one of MANY these days, who DO NOT know the rules nearly as well as they would like to believe.

I agree on both counts.

Title of this thread should be "How not to handle a coach"

I don't think "game management" means that you should avoid a confrontation that is being <b>initiated</b> by the coach. Yes, there were better ways to maybe handle things before this point, but that still doesn't change the fact that you should try to consistently apply the rules anyway. It's not really a case of "I'm gonna try to piss off the coach". It's more of a case of "This is the way we handle ALL disqualifications/substitution situations". Personally, I'd rather see consistency out there, and let the chips fall where they may. There's some coaches that you just ain't gonna please no matter what you do, and this particular coach sounds to me like one of that breed. If he didn't get mad at not getting his 30-second TO, then he'd just find something else. Somewhere along the line he's got to get the message that enough is enough (and too much is plenty:) ).

JMO as always.

bigdogrunnin,
Allowing one coach to meet with his players is providing only one team an unintended advantage.
mick

Juulie - how many times to I have to tell you - stare at his pants then puke on his shoes. You've seen me do that numerous times. :p

)

Darn it, Mark. I thought I was in control, but I forgot your timeless words. I guess it was because I was trying to figure out why my partner (whom you know, btw, but it's not abc) was ball-watching.

I'm a little surprised at the responses, here. I never even considered a T for any of this. It was just standard coach garbage. Good grief, if I"d T'd for this stuff, I might just as well toss both coaches at the beginning of every game. Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea!

Julie, sometimes we describe a situation in finite detail; yet, it's hard for others to see what we saw. Sounds like that's what we got here. We all know, or should, when we leave the gym if we had a "good game". The feelings in the gut. If you still feel that a T wasn't warranted only you should know.

Before your reply I was with the rest on this. Sometimes you just got to see the play.;)

barryb

I don't want to beat this to death (he said as he picked up the ax handle...) but maybe the reason you view this as standard coach garbage is because it falls below your trigger.

But geeze, allow a coach to engage in a rules debate with you? Then lie to you about whether his player checked in or not??

If it works for you fine, just don't want all the boys and girls out there thinking they are thin-skinned headhunters when they stop this stuff from going on in their own games.

Julie,

When a coach is being so vocal that it is starting to distract me from doing my job, it needs to be addressed early. I sounds to me like this coach was distracting you.

I have gone so far as to say, "Coach, your behavior is starting to distract me. I need you to concentrate on coaching so I can do my job."

If he doesn't comply, it's whacking time, IMO. This sounds like the kind of coach that is just going to be a pain and a distraction all night if it isn't taken care of.

STFU works well also.

But that's stage 2 right? :)

Not necessarily...:D

well, thanks to barryb for understanding my point. Dan and JR, you guys are obviously very good refs for the levels you work, but you just don't understand the lousy girls' teams from the Christian schools very well. Maybe in your next life, you'll be chubby middle-aged housewives who get stuck reffing at the middle-aged levels of bball. get back to me then.

How do you know that Dan and I <b>aren't</b> both chubby, middle-aged housewives?:confused:

We both like to dress in wimmin's clothes.

http://www.mondotv.it/EN_Mondo/Mondo...ily/Marta1.gif
http://www.mondotv.it/EN_Mondo/Mondo...ily/Marta1.gif

What?!? They're really NOT middle-aged housewives?!? :eek:

(Playing the part of devil's advocate today: M&M Guy) I can think back on many games early in my career where I felt the same way: coaches at that level really are clueless, so I should probably cut them a little more slack. Besides, it was usually the coach or AD at that school that hired me, so if I piss them them off by T'ing them, they probably won't hire me next year. But as I've gone along in my career, I've found that the reason those coaches acted that way was because the other officials (and I) let them. They acted the way they were allowed to act. If I had addressed situations earlier, and more often, the really bad games I had might not have been so bad.

If I walk away from a game wondering if I should've issued a T, then odds are I should have given it. When was the last time you walked away from a game wondering if you shouldn't have given a T, when you did? That's probably a number far less than the previous. I think that's what these middle-aged housewives have been saying - maybe as a group we need to stop worrying about what a coach or AD will think, and just take care of business. Treat them the way you would want to be treated. And if they aren't treating you that same way, then that coach cost their team acouple of FT's and a possession.

Wow, Dan really dresses up nice, doesn't he? :D

That one aint gonna fly.

I spent my time reffing boys and girls teams from the Christian schools, lousy and otherwise...and JH...and cyo...and aau...and other assorted rec leagues. That's where I learned how to deal with coaches.

At some point I decided I wasn't going to be the door mat for some frustrated wannabe who's idea of coaching is to shooot his mouth off whenever things don't go his way.

As I keep saying, coaches are like big dogs. They'll take as much as you are prepared to give them and they'll back off when you make them.

Okay, well, I despair of trying to make folks understand. If you'd been there, I really don't think you would be saying I should have T'd him. I guess I did a lousy job of conveying how the conversation went. I never felt that he was out of line, really. He was just being a dork -- thus the title of the thread. I never even remotely considered a T. It just wasn't that bad. But I don't know how to describe the situation other than what I"ve already said. So. I'll just resort to the now universal cop-out...


WHATEVER.....

:D :D :D :D :D

You forgot to add:

:shrug:, and :rolleyes:

You may be right in how things actually happened. I guess I can't say definitively until I see the video. (I'm sure it'll be posted on YouTube shortly...)

I think Lucy and Ethel were just trying to add some things to consider.

T him, eject him, stop the game & quietly tell him to coach his team and not you, yell at him to stfu, whatever. You were part of his act. He (as they say these days) owned you. Next time you see him he'll own you again.

Whatever.

Watch it or I'll get my buddy Bent after you. :eek:

Please tell him to bring his friends.

Okay, fine. If I agree, will you stfu?

Or.... whatever.....

NO FRIENDS FOR YOU!

YOU COME BACK.....ONE YEAR!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nfeld_s7e6.jpg

Nope. I cannot stfu because....

...I have been invaded by the ghost of nevadaref

:p

EEK!

I hope he's not also teleporting you out here to the West coast.!!

Hey, I know Juulie...tell them it's a "regional" thing! It might be that they would T a coach for those things in THEIR area, but out here in OUR area things are different...then tell them that just because things are a certain way in THEIR area doesn't mean they are the same everywhere - especially in OUR area...then tell them that they can't expect things to be called the same way in OUR area as they are called in THEIR area, and that's just the way it is...

Then tell Dan that if he has been invaded by the disembodied spirit of one of the regular posters on this board, well then so have you...but don't tell him who. Make him try to guess! This could be fun...

Oh yeah...THEN tell him to stfu!!:D :D :D

That would be fun, we all post as someone else and we can guess who it is!

OK, let me start...everybody guess now...

"What did I miss?"

Remember in the movie "Grease", where you hope that the Olivia Newton-John character transforms the bad-boy John Travolta character, but in the end it's the other way around?

I think the Juulie transformation is well underway!

ROFLMAO!!!

Where's "crapper" when I need him???

This coach would have respected you more, Rainmaker, if you'd had a better toss. 90% of tosses in girls' games are just lame, and it's mostly because they don't go high enough. Your partner SHOULD have been ballwatching and called it back. Then the coaches wouldn't be on your case. They'd know you were good refs.

:D

Hey, great idea, Rocky. It's fun!!