Player A is driving to the basket and shoots a layup. Player B slaps the backboard hard. This guy can realy jump. I signal a "T" for slapping the backboard. About the time I do this the ball rolls around the rim and goes in the basket. Well now what do I do? I counted the basket and we administered the Technical (shot 2 free throws and gave team A the ball at half court. My partner disagreed.
Did I get it right? If I didn't at least no one slapped the backboard again that game.

jwc

intent important...
 

Was the Team B player trying to block the shot and just happened to slap the board with his follow through? If so, you probably should have sucked on your whistle and let play continue. However, if the player was showboating or just trying to hit the board hard enough to make it vibrate, a T would definitely be justified.

More times than not, this play is the result of an unsuccessful defensive swat by B and should be left alone.

Did the player intentionally slap the backboard or was he going for the block, missed the ball, and hit the backboard?

If your answer is the former, then you got it right.

If it was the latter, then you got it wrong?

If player B's move was a legitimate attempt to block the shot, you have nothing and play on. If, however, in you judgment, player B was simply slapping the board to rattle the ball, did it for showmanship, did it out of frustration, etc., "T" 'em up. As I said before, if he was legitimately trying to block the shot and the follow through of that attempt struck the board or he simply missed the ball in the attempt, play on. The purpose of the rule, IMHO, is to penalize intentional contact with the backboard while a try is involved or placing a hand on the backboard to gain an advantage.

Yes he definitely was show boating. Was not close to blocking the ball. The awkward part was the ball did go in the basket so I had to count it plus give the "T".

So what? The kid just learned a tough lesson.

Absolutely, count it. I'm sure he looked at you in shock when you rang him up! I'm sure his coach was happy too being that the other team was about to get a chance at all kinds of points because his player was stupid!

The technical doesn't cause the ball to become dead, anymore than any other foul would. Well, there is one foul that would have cancelled the basket. :)

Any guesses?

Hmmm, are we talking NCAA mens or NFHS?

NFHS. Don't know anything about that NCAA stuff. ;)

As mentioned above, the Technical does not cause the ball to go dead. This being said, the shot has its own merit, seperate from the "T". If the shot goes in, it counts. If not, so be it. Either way you will still administer the two free throws for the "T", and ball at division line for inbound.

I don't know of any foul that would cancel the basket once the ball was released. NFHS does not have the screwy rule that NCAA has as to whether the shooter has come to the floor or released the ball. I like our rule better. You got me, if there is a foul that would cancel the basket, I don't know what it would be.

I don't know of any foul that would cancel the basket once the ball was released. NFHS does not have the screwy rule that NCAA has as to whether the shooter has come to the floor or released the ball.

I think you may have the wrong idea about the NCAA rule. In the NCAA, if the shooter releases the ball before he makes contact with the defender, then it is a common foul on the shooter and the basket will count if it goes in. I'm pretty sure that it has nothing to do with when the shooter returns to the floor. In NFHS, on the other hand, I believe that the shooter is considered to be in the act of shooting until one foot comes to the floor.

I like our rule better. You got me, if there is a foul that would cancel the basket, I don't know what it would be.

I believe it would be a player control foul in the NFHS rulebook. Even if the ball has left the shooter's hand, the basket is cancelled if he is called for a PC.

(As a technicality, a PC foul also cancels the basket in NCAA. It's just that in NCAA, the shooter is considered to have given up player control when the shot leaves the hand.)

Chuck

Since we are talking rules in college, we would not give the ball back to the shooting team after the "T". Since there was no team control at the time of the whistle, we would shoot the shots for the "T", and then go to the arrow. This is why I would hold my whistle until there is team control.

Player control foul makes the ball dead immediately,
which to answer Tony's question means the shot does not
count on a player control foul. However:

NFHS & NCAA women: player control if the player has the
ball *or* the player is an airborne shooter. Airborne
shooter player control foul means shot does not count.

NCAA men: player control if the player has the ball (doesn't
include airborne shooter). So, if the foul is before the
ball is released then it's a PC & the shot does not count.
If the ball is released before the airborne player commits
a foul it's a common foul, as Chuck points out. Score the
basket. Also, since it's a common foul you go down the
other end & shoot if the team fouled is in the bonus. I've
never seen this happen.

NCAA men: player control if the player has the ball (doesn't
include airborne shooter). So, if the foul is before the
ball is released then it's a PC & the shot does not count.
If the ball is released before the airborne player commits
a foul it's a common foul, as Chuck points out. Score the
basket. Also, since it's a common foul you go down the
other end & shoot if the team fouled is in the bonus. I've
never seen this happen. [/B][/QUOTE]

Your right this is a common foul (a push) in NCAA rules. In this play I would count the basket, (which I have had to do in a game) shoot the "T", then go and shoot the 1 and 1 if in the bonus, or go to the arrow for poss. after the "T".

Chuck is correct. The only foul that would cancel the basket would be a player control foul by the shooter.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

If the ball is released before the airborne player commits a foul it's a common foul, as Chuck points out. Score the basket. Also, since it's a common foul you go down the other end & shoot if the team fouled is in the bonus. I've never seen this happen.

This actually happened to me in one of my first college games. It was a community college 2-man game and I was lead. Play came right at me and it was right out of the casebook. A1 goes airborne, releases shot, A1 displaces B1, whistle, ball enters basket.

First season doing NCAA, and I immediately put the hand behind my head. (I know, wrong mechanic.) Had to put the fist back up, bang the basket home, point the other way and put up the 1-and-1 signal. It was really fun to talk about after the game. I felt I'd really blown it, but my partner assured me that nobody else knew what I'd done.

Chuck

Shucks, Chuck,
At the minimum you now own that mechanic.
Good job.
mick

I thought this post was about slapping the backboard. How did we get to the player control controversy? Just wondering!

Your right this is a common foul (a push) in NCAA rules. In this play I would count the basket, (which I have had to do in a game) shoot the "T", then go and shoot the 1 and 1 if in the bonus, or go to the arrow for poss. after the "T".

[/B][/QUOTE]

Very nice, you've tied together the entire thread to create
an interesting play. So we got: After A1 releases for a
shot and still airborne he fouls B1. While the shot is in
the air B2 intentionally slaps the backboard. The ball
goes in. B is in the bonus. WTF happens now?

Answer: NCAA men: as you described but why are we going to
the arrow after the T?

NFHS & NCAA women: PC on A1, wave off the basket, A shoots 2 for the T, no bonus shots for B. B gets the ball at the
endline spot for NCAA (point of interuption), A gets the
ball at midcourt for NFHS.

What do you think? Do we all agree?

I agree with you on the NFHS and NCAA women, about the ball going to B after the "T" is shot. For NCAA men you have to go to the point of interuption, that is when the "T" is called. Well in the above mentioned play the ball was in the air on a shot, and since there is no team control at this point on the shot, you need to go to the arrow for point of interuption. Does that make sence to you?

Slap Backboard
 

In college the tendency, at least what I have observed, is not to call a technical foul for the slap unless the glass is broken or it caused the backboard to break off the wall or supports.:) In college, new rule last year, I think, if the slap caused the ball to come off the rim or out of the cylinder, you can count the basket ("The Bobby Knight Rule"). However, in high shcool, we do not have such a rule. So if you do not call the 'T' and the ball comes out because to the shake-rattle-or roll. You have egg on your face or a very late whistle. I have worked with partners who work college and refuse to call the 'T' for the slap no matter what. The earlier post that said after calling the 'T' they had no more problems with slapping the board. I think that is the intent of the rule. The NFHS rules committee, wisely I migh add, inserted the word intentionally slapping the BB. Now it is the officials judgement as to whether the 'T' is called or you pass on it. If you pass you may have to explain it to the coach.

I was not thinking of a player control foul which always cancels the basket in NFHS.

Just six more days til my first high school games. Anxious, but a little jittery too. It's been a long spring & summer.

NCAA Women also use the Point of Interruption after a T, so I don't see how the administration would be different in Women's and Men's...if we are going to the arrow in Men's, wouldn't we go to the arrow in Women's?? Since there was no control (player or team) during the shot, we have to go to the arrow in both, correct? Help me out here, please!!

First off for Jerry, there is no rule in college to count the basket if it doesn't go in. The only new rule last year was the point of interruption on T's.

For Rocky, yes you are right about the point of interruption for women as well. So yes they would go to the arrow as well. Sorry for this mistake.

Yes, it does make sense now that I think about it but I'm
not sure it's fair (I know, I know) or within the intent
of the rules. I'm gonna ask some questions about this
one.

Jerry, the "Bobby Knight Rule" relates to BI, not
backboard striking, so there's never a T involved (well, not since that well known first time!)

NCAA 4-4-2:

"Basket interference also occurs when a movabe basket ring
is pulled down by a player so that it contacts the ball
before the ring returns to its original position."

Whew...thanks Dennis...had me worried there for a minute. I was pretty comfy - thinking I had that Point of Interruptios stuff handled, and then you threw me for a loop...thanks for clarifying!!

dj

no control?
 

In the women's collegiate game, how can you say that the foul occured with no control? If there is an airborne shooter rule, then there is control by the shooter until the shooter returns to the floor.

This means the T in question would have happened while there was possession. Thus, under the point of interruption rule, B would get the ball after the T.

No that is wrong ... even though there can still be a charge in this case, there is still no team control.

NCAA rule book Team control continues until the ball is in flight during a try for a goal, or an opponent secures control or the ball becomes dead.

So even though you may have a charge, there is no team control, it is just player control. This is why you would go to the arrow.

This is why they always say at the next level you need to learn how to hold you whistle just a tad bit longer. If the ref would have just waited on the "T" for a second or 2 longer, then you wouldn't have all of this confussion. If the basket goes, maybe let the slap go, but tell the player next time you got them. If the ball doesn't go, then come out with the "T".

Re: no control?
 

I don't think anyone said the airborne player rule does
not apply in women's NCAA.


As far as I'm concerned all the
talk about what happens after the T in this case
is related to NCAA mens only.


oops, this is wrong, I take it back!

[Edited by Dan_ref on Sep 28th, 2001 at 02:12 PM]