NCAA Emphasis on palming/carrying
 

I was a little bit surprised that a player I watched was called about five times for carries on several high dribbles over his shoulder. Some seemed legit, but there were other times where he seemed guilty of nothing other than dribbling it high with his hand on top of the ball at all times. I don't really understand how this is being enforced. Here's the text from the 2007 NCAA rulebook:

It's being enforced by competent, knowledgable officials. Would you be equally surpised if it was called on a player on the <b>other</b> team? You know...the one that you aren't a fan of?:D

Geeze, we usually don't get the fanboys here until March. :)

I admit this kid has a high dribble at times. However - there were a couple of times where he clearly keeps his hand on top the ball but dribbles it above his shoulder level and a ref signals a carry. One particular time, he continues his dribble behind and above his shoulder, but his hand is no more than maybe 60 degrees from top dead center and nowhere near facing "skyward" as stated in the NCAA rulebook. For those who want to give a real answer - is that a carry?

I'm just curious what's with the insult rather than a straight answer. We've got people are convinced that the new NCAA emphasis is that dribbling above shoulder-level is illegal. It's a fairly simple question. I suppose you've never watched a game on TV and started wondering what a ref was calling because it didn't seem to reflect the rules.

I will give you a very straight answer. I have no idea what was called because I was not there. The officials on the game were standing only a few feet from a play and you should ask them. I have no idea why a carry call was made against your player without seeing what he or she did in person. You might think they called a violation for one thing and they called it for something entirely different. What you think is clear, might not be so clear to the people who get paid the big bucks to make that call.

Peace

Insult? <i>Moi?</i> Never!

Let me take a wild guess though, bearclause....

You're an Auburn fan and one of your players got called for multi palming violations in your last game.

Am I close? Be honest now. :D

And, kidding aside, officials don't screw up multi palming violations at that level. They <b>all</b> know the difference between a high dribble and a carry. If they don't, they sureashell don't last long. You can take that to the bank.

No. Cal fan. Great Alaska Shootout final against Loyola Marymount. Jerome Randle got called several times. Once it looked like he picked up his dribble. Another time (8:08 left) it looks like he's dribbling high and above the shoulder. I don't dispute that he did get a legit carry (some were closer than others) called a couple of times and may have been trying to test the refs.

Regardless of whether or not the refs might have judged an actual carry, I just wanted to know if a high-dribble (above the shoulder) is by definition considered carrying under the new emphasis. I'm having a discussion with people who are convinced that how high the dribble is may be enough (by itself) to call a carry.

It also seems that many refs are just adjusting to the new emphasis at the beginning of the season. I'm pretty sure that some crews are calling it tighter than others.

In citing everything above from the NCAA book, bearclause, you left the following out:

-- From the <b>Points of Emphasis</b> at the front of this year's NCAA rulebook --<i >"The dribbler, who during a <b>high</b> or hesitation dribble, causes the ball to come to <b>rest</b> and then pushes or pulls the ball to either side or in front of him <b>commits an in indefensible violation which MUST be called</b>"</i>.

That's why the player got called for it. The NCAA rulesmakers want all of their officials to look for it and call it. That player is gonna continue to get called for it too until he stops doing it.

On the e-officials web site, there is an excellent video showing how the play should be called.

Not a minute too soon.

I wish that palming and carrying were more of an emphasis in FED. Each year the players seem to get by with more and more. I've seen some girls with palms facing the celing and the ball almost coming to rest. I have to admit I don't call the carry as often as I used to.

Certainly I can tell when there's a blatant carry, and it upset me to no end when NBA star players would get away with it. Once I was just shooting around a basketball at a playground, and these kids were emulating a Jordan crossover where they'd just scoop the ball under their hands repeatedly. Try telling a bunch of kids that Michael Jordan gets away with an illegal move. I once sat in the 3rd row of a D-I college game and could hear everything the refs were saying. There was one particular player who liked to bring his hand over the top of the ball when walking it up, but otherwise never did when pressured by a defender. However - he did get called once, and I heard the ref yell, "Carry! Big time!" The sense I got was that they were telling him it was OK if he didn't get an advantage, but this time his hand went through 270 degrees of the ball.

I'd certainly like to understand what's the difference between a legal move and an illegal one. I'm not a subscriber to the services mentioned, so I don't have access to the video described. However - I'm just trying to get a handle on what the following would be:

1) A player dribbles a ball way over the head, but the hand is directly on top of the ball and the upward/downward dribble is always in a fluid motion that's relatively straight.

2) A player is running faster than the momentum of the ball and continues the dribble by bringing the ball above and behind his shoulder with the hand above 90 degrees from the top of the ball.

3) The "hesitation" move that's specified in the 2007 NCAA rulebook emphasis. It sounds like they're referring to things like where a player might dribble the ball high, and continue the downward dribble motion with several direction changes during the same downward motion.

My problem with the refs is that I'm looking at other games, and there are players who are dribbling the ball borderline supporting the weight of the ball, and I don't see calls. I question some of the calls because I never saw the ball "coming to rest" or being supported by the hand.

Why do you need an emphasis to make the call? If you have an obvious violation, then call it. POE is for people who are not calling something properly. Also the POE is not going to mean anything if the people that do the hiring get upset at officials for making these types of calls.

Peace

Who cares what the NBA does? That is a different level and different level of expectation. Comparing the NBA to NCAA is not a very good example. If players do not know the difference between the NCAA or NBA that is their fault.

From my point of view you are really not making much sense. I was at an NCAA Officiating Clinic that the NCAA puts on all over the country and are a requirement for every D1 official to attend and I heard Hank Nichols talk about this rule in great detail and how it was to be called. What you described makes no sense to what was said and I really do not know what part of the NCAA rulebook you are trying to read. It is also clear you do not know a lot about officiating either.

Here is the thing big guy. Division 1 officials are scrutinized on everything they do. If they call things that are not there, they will be fined, suspended or fired. If you know so much about what they call, then I suggest you pay the money, go to an officiating camp at the D1 level and pay around $500 just to attend the camp. Of course you will have to pay the travel expenses which for many involve a plane flight or a 7-10 hour drive depending on which camp you attend. Then pay for your hotel expenses and food for the 2-4 days you are away from home. After you do all of that and get hired (you will likely have to do this for years to even sniff a real change of being hired), then come talk to us about what should or should not be called on a palming call. It is easy to call the game from the cheap seats while watching a game. It is quite another to thing to call this while actually officiating a game.

Peace

I'm just thinking the first time those kids try out that move in junior high or high school, they'll be sorely disappointed. I understand the NBA rule is essentially the same, but the enforcement is not.

Then maybe you can help. It sounds like a simple rule. One can't let ball come to rest on the hand while dribbling. However - this "point of emphasis" in the NCAA rulebook is making a lot of people who watch the games suspicious that it's meant to outlaw any dribbling motion above the shoulder level. That's really the one thing I want to know. Can a player (NCAA) dribble the ball above the shoulder or head legally?

Is this really some secret society with some secret handshake? I understand it does take a lot of experience and training to learn everything and to perform it well at a high level. However - I love volleyball, and I know any number of refs who are perfectly willing to explain to the fan otherwise obscure points to the rulebook.

yes


maybe:)

We're not at liberty to answer this question. You'll need to address this one to the Grand Zebra at his private email account.

When I do watch NBA games, I have seen these called. So I really do not know what you are talking about. And I am not sure what the NBA has to do with this conversation. You are not asking about the NBA, you are asking about the NCAA.

Yes depending on how the ball got there.

Volleyball has fans?

Peace

I'm just referring to kids who emulate what they see their NBA heros get away with. I have been noticing carrying being called more in the NBA recently. The real eye-opener for me was seeing Kobe Bryant get called for a carry. However - I always thought that Michael Jordan in his prime got away with carrying quite often.

OK - I was thinking of several dribbles where the max height is at maybe waist level, followed by one really high dribble where the hand remains reasonably on the top of the ball and never "freezes" near the apex of the dribble. Maybe the dribbler runs forward and the ball also is pushed forward on the downstroke. I know this is something best described by a video clip.

Sure. The 2006 NCAA Women's Volleyball FF sold their entire public allotment in one day and should be filled to their 18K capacity.

Really though - the rules are in fairly plain English that almost free of obscure wording or technical jargon. It's not like trying to read one of my engineering datasheets. I would have thought someone would be willing to answer a few simple questions that might reduce some of the confusion out there. Frankly I don't care about what happened to this particular player any more - the team won and any violation called didn't affect the outcome. I'm just trying to be more informed about what I pay my money to see.

And just in case I haven't said it - thanks. I've always thought carrying the ball was fairly simple to spot, but apparently not. I appreciate anyone trying to help poor 'ol me understand.

Just to add, if you dribble the ball up around your shoulders, you increase the odds of carrying the ball because of what it takes to control the ball at this high dribble. Not a smart thing to continue to do as a player. You also increase the odds of having the ball stolen. Bottom line, bad habit by the player. My bet is his playing time will continue to decrease if he doesn't stop this.

Well I am sure the NBA was not calling the game based on what you thought.

Yes it is. You have to see it to call it. ;)

I was being facetious. It is nice that they sold out an 18,000 seat facility. The last time I checked NCAA Men's basketball are played in domes. Those usually have much more than 18,000 seats in them. ;)

The words are one thing, what you see is another issue all together. And having been an official for some time now in differnet sports, officials do not call things based solely on black and white definitions. This is the reason the NCAA and other officiating organizations use tape to illustrate points of view on what should be called and why. Without seeing the plays you are talking about, I am going to trust that the officials have a better knowledge of what took place than you or I in this situation.

Of course is it simple when you have not been trained or every put on the striped shirt and whistle in your life. It is quite another to have to make that decision in a split second in live action.

Peace

Oh brother. :rolleyes:

Peace

You can get access without being a subscriber. Go to:

http://www.eofficials.com/

Just register as an "Affiliate". That's free. After registering and logging in, look at the left-hand side of the page under <b>AFFILIATES AREA</b> and click on <b>NCAA</b>. On the next page, click on <b>MENS BASKETBALL</b>. Then on the next page, you'll see <b>VIDEO LIBRARY</b> at the bottom. That's got a whole bunch of good stuff to watch.

Btw, it is nice to see a fan actually trying to learn the rules. Usually, we just get the whiners and b!tchers here.