another rules question
 

after a made basket by B1 ball hits floor and stays on inbounds side of boundry plain. A1 goes out bounds and reaches threw boundry plain and tips ball to inbound player A2. Is this a violation and what rule can you site if it is a violation.
thanks

Sounds like a leave it alone.

Depends if the ball is on the floor or in the air when A1 taps it. If it's in the air, it's legal, as long as at least one foot is OOB, and no part of him is touching in bounds.
If it's on the floor when he taps it, it's a violation, I think. I'll have to check the rules on it, though.

NFHS 9-2 NOTE: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area before the ball is released on the throw-in pass.

snaqweel,
thats what ive come up with, i had a friend (coach) ask me this question so i would to support it with a rules cite.

how do you put someones post in the high lighted quote?

Click Quote.

My take:
 

NFHS 9-2-2 The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.
NFHS 4-31 A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player.

but -

NFHS 4-9-1,2 Boundary lines of the court consist of end lines and sidelines.
The inside edges of these lines define the inbounds and out-of-bounds areas.

So was the ball ever actually out of bounds?

NFHS 4-4-4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.

Yes it was! So there is no violation here.

Despite the ball being in contact with the floor it seems that the ball should be considered out-of-bounds at the moment the OOB player touches it.

RULE4, SECTION 4 BALL LOCATION, AT DISPOSAL
ART. 1 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.
ART. 2 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

7-1-2 . . . The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by:
a. A player who is out of bounds.


Therefore, I wish to sidestep this issue and would support calling a violation on this throw-in play by pointing to 9-2-5 ". . . The thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court."

I agree that the player is out of bounds, but it seems to me that the out of bounds status of the ball takes precedence over the backcourt status of the ball. There is no definition for "carry" in the Rule Book or anything in the Case Book that I can find that would help clarify, other than 4-15-4-b The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands , but I still can't think that that instant of the thrower tapping or pushing the ball can be construed as "carrying" the ball.

And since it doesn't seem to me that a ball can have both backcourt and out of bounds status at the same time, I don't see how even if you ruled the thrower's touch of the ball a carry, that the ball could somehow be both in the backcourt and out of bounds at the same time (during the time the thrower's hand is in contact with the ball).

Think of it this way: You don't call a backcourt violation when a sliding player, in contact with out of bounds, touches the ball in the backcourt near the sideline for what would have been a backcourt violation if the player had been in bounds -- you call out of bounds, don't you? -- Because the ball is now out of bounds - not in the backcourt, technically.

Or am I totally off on this?

Backcourt has nothing to do with this situation. It's either inbounds or out of bounds. Forget about BC.

The original poster is not clear. If the ball is on the floor and the thrower pushes it to his teammate, it's a violation as the ball is inbounds and was never OOB. If the ball is not touching the floor, then the tocuh by the thrower is legal.

You guys are making this way harder than it should be.

I understand what you're saying, and both reason and the multitude of problems that I could see arising from the defense getting involved in the touching of this ball would lend to the common sense ruling of a violation, but doesn't NFHS 4-4-4 support the ball having out of bounds status during the touch by the thrower? A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location. How can you get around that? Throw-in provisions don't state that the ball must break the throw-in boundary line plane for the ball to legally be thrown in.

If the player were to pick the ball up while standing OOB and proceed to hold the ball while touching it to the floor in bounds; it's a violation. That's how you call the violation if he bats it off the floor to a teammate in lieu of picking it up and throwing it for a standard throw-in. Either the ball was never truly OOB, and you can call that violation, or the OOB player touched the floor in bounds with the ball during a throw-in and you have that violation.

I want to agree, but cite something to convince me.

I don't see a grey area here, personally, for the status of the ball. The ball is either out of bounds or not out of bounds, not "kind-of out of bounds, but not enough for a legal throw-in to happen," by virtue of 4-4-4 and 7-1-2-a.

Again, as soon as I hear a citation to prove something to this effect, I'll concede. I'm just not there yet. I'm stuck on the stuff I've already cited.

Hawkeye,
Let me ask you this. A1, who is standing OOB for a throw-in following a shot, loses his balance and steps just over the line onto the inbounds portion of the court. His back foot is still OOB. You're going to call this, right?

This is a violation, and the basis is the same as for the play I described in post #12 above. My book's in the car, I'll look up the rules cite in the morning.

You get around it by reading <b>all</b> of the rule that you cited and picking out the article that is applicable. See 4-4-1--<i>"A ball which is in contact with a player or <b>with the court</b> is in the <b>backcourt</b> if either <b>the ball</b> or the player is <b>touching the backcourt</b>"</i>. The "backcout" is in-bounds as per rules 1-1 and 4-13-2.If the thrower OOB now touches the ball <b>on</b> the court, it's a violation as per rule 9-2-2.

9-2-5
The thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court.

While the thrower is OOB, he cannot touch the floor inbounds or touch the ball while it is touvhing the floor inbounds. Even though he's touching OOB, he cannot touch inbounds nor can the ball while he's touching/holding it. This is the principle of 9-2-5.

9.2.5 SITUATION: Thrower A1 inadvertently steps through the plane of the boundary line and touches the court inbounds. A1 immediately steps back into normal out-of-bounds throw-in position. The contact with the court was during a situation: (a) with; or (b) without defensive pressure on the throw-in team.
RULING: A violation in both (a) and (b). COMMENT: Whether or not there was defensive pressure or whether or not stepping on the court was inadvertent, it is a violation and no judgment is required in making the call.

Yep, leave it alone.

on a related subject....
 

Team A scores. B1 grabs the ball and starts to take it out. He has one foot in and one foot out, and passes to B2. I called a violation. But, what happened was that B1 realized that A was coming with pressure and that B2 should take the ball out. I was disoriented when I realized what they were doing, but the call stood. 9.2.2 Situation C is the closest thing I find to this, but at what point does this become a violation?

It becomes a violation when you think that B1 is actually making a throw-in instead of just giving the ball to B2 to make the throw-in. Judgment call iow.

I'd give it just a moment to see what B2 does with the ball. Patient whistle, IOW. :)

Alright Bkt, Snaq, and Jurassic, I'm pretty much there, I guess.

But by the logic you've all displayed, wouldn't it also be a violation for the thrower to go out of bounds, reach, and tap the still in-bounds ball to him/herself to then pick up and throw in? Or does this fall under: By the strict interp of the rules (as has been laid out here), yes, this is a violation, but we're going to leave it alone now, because it doesn't look as strange, and no one's gaining an advantage, etc.?

(Edited to include)

And also, two of the rule citations listed in this thread are at opposition with one another, if we're saying they both have equal precedence.

4-4-1 (and 4-4-2, for that matter) A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.

4-4-4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.

Because, as both myself and someone else have already asserted, the ball cannot be both out of bounds and in the back(or front)court.

I didn't give you <b>logic</b>. I gave you <b>rules</b>. Whether you choose to believe or disbelieve those rules is completely up to you.

What you're talking about above is the method the player is using to get ready to </b>start</b> the throw-in, <b>not</b> what rules are actually used to govern the thrower <b>after</b> the throw-in has started. See rule 4-42-3 and 7-6-1. The throw-in and the throw-in count do not start until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. In the case above, the throw-in does not start until <b>after</b> the player OOB had possession of the ball OOB- iow <b>after</b> he had tapped the ball to himself.

One will take precedence over the other during a live ball in bounds. BC takes precedence over FC if a player is touching both. OOB takes precedence over IB if the player is touching both. During a throw in, it's slightly different. The player is only allowed to be OOB. Once he gets OOB, he must stay there until the ball is released on a pass. You call the violation for the same reason you call a violation if he hands it off to a teammate or if he lets even one toe touch the court in bounds before he releases the pass.

In your new situation, she is attempting to pull the ball OOB to secure it for a throwin. No violation. In the original situation, she is attempting to short cut the rule by batting the ball. If the ball is in the air (bouncing) when she bats it, legal. If it's on the floor, the ball is now both in bounds and out of bounds; this is the violation.

Answer to your edit....

No, these 2 citations are not opposite at all. They supplement each other. A player or an official is deemed to be part of the court at their standing location. So....if a ball touches a player in the backcourt or touches the backcourt(including an official standing in the backcourt), the ball is deemed to be touching the backcourt. Similarly, if the ball touches a player, frontcourt or an official standing in the frontcourt, the ball is deemed to be touching the frontcourt. It ain't rocket science.

I can read them in the book, so I believe them. I apologize for my poor choice of word(s).

That makes perfect sense. I appreciate the help.

Not to start an argument you just made me think. If the player went OOB and the ball was sitting inbounds and the player was waiting for his team to get set up before he picked up the ball then I would start my count. Therefore the throw-in has started because the ball is at the disposal of the player even though the ball is still inbounds.

I've also made the argument in the past that you can be holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds and not have player control.

After a made basket B1 gets the ball but doesn't go directly OOB to make the throw-in. He is waiting for his team to get set up and thinks that the count doesn't start until he goes OOB. Little does he know that I've started my count and that he is 3 seconds away from a violation. This player is holding a live ball inbounds. Does this player have player control? If A1 fouls B1 what do we have? If B1 fouls A1 are we shooting bonus free throws?

I just sit around thinking of mundane things like this all day. :cool:

Live ball, players are inbounds, throw-in has started (ball at disposal).......

common fouls either way....free throws if team is in bonus

1) Yup, the throw-in has started in that situation, but then taking or getting the ball OOB after you've started your count to make a legal throw-in still isn't a throw-in violation under any rule that I'm aware of. If you can think of one, post it.

If the Throw-in has started, while B1 is standing inbounds with the ball...then a foul by A1 would have to be intentional. Right?

Edit: Intentional/Flagrant/or ignored.

No, only if A1 actually committed an intentional foul on another B player or if he fouled B1 inbounds(I think).

Once the throw-in started, the ball became live. That means 4-19-1NOTE goes out the door. A foul on another B player other than B1 would be a personal foul of some kind, solely dependant on the act, because the ball is live. But.... the rule book <b>is</b> kinda unclear as to whether a foul committed on B1 inbounds before he got OOB should actually be an intentional personal foul. Rule 9-2PENALTY4 only covers the situation where a defender fouls a thrower who is <b>already</b> OOB. I would imagine that you would use the same logic though to call an intentional personal foul if a defender fouled a player that was going OOB with a live ball to make the throw-in.

Good question, Dude.

This might qualify as the most confusing thread of all time.

The OP was just asking if after a made basket the thrower can inbound the ball by just tapping the still inbounds ball to his teammate or if he has to take it out of bounds with him and pass it. Somehow palming the ball and backcourt status came into question.

My head is about to explode! :eek:

Okay what if the same thing happens as stated above but instead of fouling, A1 hits the ball out of B1's hands? Is this the same as if B1 was OOB but holding the ball inbounds?

In that case here is what I would call.

RULE 10, SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:...

ART. 6 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

Why wouldn't it be like the situation when the inbounder holds the ball over the boundary line and gets the ball stolen. This is legal, I believe, as long as there is no contact on the inbounder. The only difference is that the inbounder's body is actually inbounds at the time in this situation.

Note that I do not think this is right, but I can see an argument for it being legal.

In this situation the ball is put in play by a throw-in, and the throw-in has already started. So how can this be the call?

Since the nonscoring team is awarded the ball OOB for a throw-in, they must be allowed to gather the ball and take it OOB uncontested.

Ruling anything else would make a farce of 7-4-3.

The scoring team cannot be permitted to steal the ball prior to the opponent obtaining the ball and the position where it is awarded to them by rule.

What about the old, blow the whistle and say, "Hey, kid, you can't do that,"
and give them a fresh 5 second count. Wouldn't that be better?

I see this as similar to 7-6-3 Note: The thrower shall have a minimum of
3 feet horizontally....... If the court is not marked.....an imaginary restraining line shall be imposed.......


You wouldn't call a T when the kid crossed this imaginary line, would you?
It's not something we should make a habit of, but sometimes you have to explain things, especially things like this which are not really specified in the book in the first place.

It depends upon the game situation, but I would likely not warn for knocking the ball away from the inbounder to be. I may well consider it to be unsporting. In any event, I must say that I would likely assess a T.

As for the restraining line: I would call a team delay of game warning for breaking the plane. Why? Because 1-2-2 says this, " This restraining line becomes the boundary line during a throw-in on that side or end, as in 7-6. It continues to be the boundary until the ball crosses the line."

Delay of game warning on Team A for interfering with the ball following a made basket.