Help Please
 

I had a scrimmage and I was telling another official not to ave a 5-second count as lead (when ball is live) I know I am correct but I cna't find it in the manual anywhere. Can someone give me some direction on where to find it so I can pass it on. He was still unsure when I told him.

Thanks

If the ball is in your primary coverage area and there is a closely guarded sit. why wouldn't you have a count?

I know that is very odd to see, but if he is in the paint, there is no need for a 5 second count. Closely guarded can be anywhere in the front court, outside the paint. Of course in the paint, you get a 3 second violation first!

NCAA the lead does not have a 5 second count. It is in the mechanics book but I do not have it right now. It also has a diagram that shows the coverage. Trail & Center are the only ones that count 5 seconds.
I'm not so sure about NFHS. JR?

This is incorrect. What if A1 has a closely guarded dribble for 3 seconds outside the paint and then continues into the paint. This would be a 5 second call before the 3 second call.

Of course, that would be the case.

I was taught to never have a visual count as the lead and I never count as the lead. If the ball is coming from outside the paint, the T should have the count in most cases. That's just the way it's done in my area.

That's true for Men, but I'm not sure about Women.

In HS, I believe that the Lead does have the closely guarded count in his/her primary.

I found in the 05-07 NFHS Officials Manual under "Court Coverage - Three Officials" makes reference to "The Center or Trail, who has a 5-second closely guarded count in the front court," (Pg 48).

Also, later in the same chapter, "All officials have the responsibilty to call plays they clearly see away fron their primary areas of responsibilty."

Most of our Association's senior officials say that lead should not be counting for closely guarded during three man mechanics.

Was it 3-man or 2-man?

In NCAA-W, the L would be responsible for the 5-second count in their primary, mainly because the L's primary extends out to the sideline.

I'm curious as to what other people do in HS as well. I've also been told by many veteran officials that the L never has that count. My question to them as always been, "If the ball is in your primary, then who is supposed to have the count? If the T, for example, has the count, then are you advocating two sets of eyes in your primary?" No one has been able to answer that, other than to say that it's never been an issue.

Granted, it is rarely an issue, given the coverage areas in HS. More often than not, the ball gets knocked away or passed out quickly if it's on the block or in the paint. But if I'm the R, I will mention in the pre-game that the L should have that count if it's in their primary.

If it's in his/her primary why not count?

Because in 3-person HS mechanics the lead is not suppose to have a 5 second count. In my opinion it is stupid, you are going to have two people watch the ball. I don't understand why the lead cannot have a count.

I agree with you, but I'm still wondering where it is written that the L does <B>not</B> have the count. FishinRef found the reference to "The Center or Trail, who has a 5-second closely guarded count in the front court," (Pg 48). But, again, it doesn't say the L should not have the count.

Maybe we need to have that discussion again about if something is not specifically mentioned, is it allowed, or not allowed? :D

In the OP, it did not make any mention of 2 or 3 man. secondly there are areas of the court that the lead is repsonble for that would require a 5 second count.

3man
 

My origianl post was reguarding 3-man. Sorry if there was any confusion.

I think the line of thinking is that there really shouldn't be a time when lead should have to call a 5 second violation. The lead is primarily there for post play. If a player is dribbling out front and then gets into the lane still legally guarded the T should be staying with the count. Besides that, it would be difficult to see a visual count from the lead on the baseline. Too many bodies in the way most of the time.

Agreed.
:confused: So, are you saying just because no one can see your count, there shouldn't be one?

I was just saying that I think the difficulty seeing a visual count on the baseline might be one of the reasons they don't want the lead counting. In fact, I would guess that soon we'll use the NCAA mechanic of having the T chop the clock in on a baseline throw in. Different situation but the same difficulty.

Understood.

I guess my point is no one seems to know exactly why, but most seem to accept it. I'm just questioning the mechanic based on the theory that it is allowing two sets of eyes on the ball.

There is no written rule that I have found in the case, rule and officials manual. It may be a region by region situation. I have and been in games that a lead makes the call especially baseline outside the lane yet in front of lead and neither T or C primary and the lead makes the call on a trap.

I agree that it's one of those unwritten things. I can't remember seeing any high school officials in my area counting visually from the L. I know I was told early on never to do it so I don't.