Is this curse worthy of a "T"?
 

Boys varsity game. Pre-season tourney. Player A1 is near his bench with the ball in the front court (2nd half).. . Coach mutters to his player A1 "How the Hell did you miss Smith on that play?" loud enough that 2 officials heard it. Worthy of a T?

Hell, no. :cool:

No - definately not.

Let it go. No T

That was my gut instinct, too. Unfortunately, my partner whacked him...which soured the coaches mood the remainder of the game toward my partner, who ended up whacking him again...and thus an early exit. I personally would have talked to the coach at the next dead ball and warned him and told him I was letting it go because it was pre-season. I think my partner's haste was unnecessary, but he was the "R", so I bit my tongue.

I can't believe that anyone would whack someone for that.

I don't think it should be a T, but I don't think you should have said this either. I don't think you needed to say anything to the coach.

Play on; unless it's a religious school league in which you've been given explicit instructions otherwise. Don't even warn the coach.

We all have different tolerance levels of language. I personally would not have T'd up anyone for this. Just understand that it might not have been just for the words, but the way this was said and what had previously took place in the game. I usually like to give a warning or two if someone is using language that I feel is inappropriate. I would not have T'd a coach for this if this was the first time I heard these words.

Peace

The worst language I hear come from Catholic schools. I do not see many people enforcing those kinds of rules with those schools. ;)

Peace

I have to say that, even as rules-picky as I am, I would probably be pretty hard pressed to call the T s but I would very likely say something to the coach at some point.

I think some people are missing the point. In NFHS (so I'm not referring to college or pro with this, since I only officiate HS), the sports are defined as an extention of the classroom. No sport permits profanity or obscenity, as none of these are appropriate in a classroom.

That goes double for coaches - it is never appropriate for a teacher to swear at a student - sure, it happens (cant say as I ever have in 11 years of teaching, nor do I remember having any teachers that did), but is it ever appropriate? No. And the rules, and the rules committees, ask us to enforce this, through its inclusion in the rules, and regular, repeat appearances in POE's in many sports yearly.

That said - I still would have trouble calling that one without a warning, but I would very likely give the warning quickly, and then the T just as quickly if it happens again.

JMHO

You went through all of that to tell us the same thing? Who really missed the point? :rolleyes:

Peace

Let me preface my view with the fact that I do not care for foul langauge nor swearing, from partners or those invovled in the game. That said there is no way that I would T up a coach for this, without extenuating circumstances. He can talk to his players and coach, and I will call my game. Without knowing all of the facts, it almost appears your partner was looking for reasons to T, or at the least, way too quick to pull the trigger on a T.

The majority of people who responded to this said "no T" - the rules, and the philosophy of the game as defined by the NFHS, say "T".

Far too many officials I know make up things as they go along, and ignore rules or interpretations they disagree with. That was why I went through all of that.

And that is your OPINION, which you are absolutely entitled to.

As others have already said, it's not just what words are used, but how they were used, who they were directed at and the demeanor of the person using them. We weren't there, so there's no way we can judge that except from the original post - there's a big difference between "muttered", as stated in the original post, and "screamed".

Yes there are some words that if uttered loudly enough to be clearly overheard will draw an automatic "T" - IMHO "hell" isn't one of them.

I've never liked the way that rule is written. What is profane and inappropriate can vary widely according to official's own beliefs. Obviously there are things we don't want to hear on the floor, but this can certainly be a grey area. I wouldn't even address a coach saying "what in the hell" to a player.

The point I am making is you gave a lecture only to come to the same conclusion. No one here is "ignoring the rules." Everyone that responded was saying that this did not pass the smell test for them.

Peace

So you're saying this is appropriate for a teacher to say to a student? That is what the test should be, since the NFHS defines high school sports as an extention of the classroom.

I think a word you can hear on broadcast TV 24/7 is not worthy of a T. Thats MY judgment on the matter.

Look, we set aside rules all the time. How many ticky tack travels have all of us passed on in a 65-15 blowout? It happens all the time but the NFHS says we are to call traveling when a player picks up his pivot for example.

Its about COMMON SENSE if you ask me. If you go around calling every infraction in the book every time, you wont be reffing very long at any significant level.

It would be different if the coach used BS or F or GD or my favorite: FinGDBSCSSOB. None of those you hear on TV and all justify somewhere between a warning and a T if they are used loudly enough to be heard.

"Damn" and "Hell" arent on that list.

"Hell" is nothing. If you give out warnings for "hell", that's what your career will be.

Um. . . <font></font>

And moves it!!!

Sorry :cool:

Actually, I had teachers say much worse things to me. Appropriate? If you knew me in high school....

But no where does it say that network TV is the standard - the classroom is the standard, which brings me back to... is it appropriate for a teacher to say that to a student? If not, it isn't appropriate for a coach to say to a player. And if it isn't appropriate for a teacher to say it to a student quietly, neither should it be for a coach.

If we are basing our standards on television, something is wrong. We don't base our classroom standards on that, or there would be an awful lot that would be acceptable in the classroom that isn't.

And that makes it appropriate? Not under any circumstances. Your teachers should be above reacting to any behavior in an inappropriate manner. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying just because it does happen doesn't mean it should, or that it is appropriate for teachers (or coaches) to do so.

Did I miss the article in Rule 10 that sets out "Classroom Standards"? Is it defined in Rule 4? I don't see anything in the rules that says anything about that. Additionally, even if we do use "classroom standards", there are times when things are more relaxed in the classroom -- like after class, or an after school activity -- when it might not be inappropriate for a teacher to say "hell". "Good luck at State U, Johnny. It'll be a helluva lot more work, but I know you're up to the challenge." Ideal? Maybe not. But also not unreasonable or inappropriate, I don't think.

Again - I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I myself would never say something like that to the students. I would use heck. I would certainly never swear at a student or a player (on the teams that I coach/have coached). Would it be appropriate for an official to say that to a player? Of course not. It isn't appropriate for a coach to say it to a player. Whether we address it or not... that seems to be up to the individual official. Just like the call to not call a travel in a blowout against a team. I agree that it probably shouldn't be done. It falls under what everyone around here calls "Game Management". To me, "Game Management" is an excuse to ignore rules in favor of an official's personal opinion or judgement. Judgement comes in sometimes, but in general, if you are using it to ignore rules, something is wrong - I feel the judgement of the people who wrote the rules should take precidence.

If a coach swears in basketball, I'm very likely to T him up if I can hear it and I'm not standing in front of him. Same with soccer, except he will receive a card. He/she is an adult, and is expected to be in control of themselves, and to take responsibility for their choices or actions.

Where is this classroom standard that you claim is around? ;)

Seriously, what the standard in one place is different in another. Depending on the teacher when I was coming up there were certain teachers that were a little loose with their words and others that were straight as a razor. Not everyone has this "classroom standard" that you keep talking about. And if there is a standard it surely changes based on where you are. I live in a metropolitan area where you can go 10 miles from one place to another the standards change drastically. There was a football coach this year was suspended for putting up a sign to motivate his players that had some Nazi overtones. When I heard the content of the sign it would not have raised an eyebrow at face value. The only way I knew it was offensive when someone told me the origin and the history. I say this because to a Jewish ref this might have offended them and to someone who is not Jewish would not have been noticed at all. And I think this is why the NF keeps the language vague and knows that what is appropriate is going to change from one place to another.

Peace

Do you think that it is an EXACT comparison to compare the emotion involved in a high school basketball game vs. the standards used to teach in a classroom environment? I dont think you can make that exact specific comparison in the real world. You are reading too much into it in my opinion.

I think it's not up to us to be the guys who try to uphold that level of standard in the gym. That is the principal, AD and school board's job. My job is to make sure profanity is not used during the game especially directed at me or opponents. If a coach wants to get in a kids grill and use hell and damn...maybe even GD, I will let his peers and supervisors make the decision if that type of language is appropriate or not. If s/he is using language that has become very common place in our society (hell and damn), I am leaving it alone. If he crosses the line and uses IN MY OPINION, words that are considerd profainty by a common sense standard, I'll deal with it with either warnings or Ts.

I believe if you go looking for trouble, you will find it and if you start tossing T's everytime you hear Damn or Hell, I submit you will A ) ruin those games and B ) wont be working at the high school level.

That classroom standard is what teachers are taught when they go to college. I don't believe you would find any teacher education program which teaches a teacher that it is appropriate for them to say that phrase used originally in the first post in this thread, regardless of where they are being taught, or where they are located. That is the standard that I am referring to.

Your example is a case of a hidden meaning - there is no hidden meaning in obscenity or profanity.

I am not a teacher. So to talk about what teachers are taught is not my job. Also I am sure teachers in different areas learn to adjust if they work in different types of schools. I know that an inner-city area is treated a little different than an affluent suburb where everyone in the parking lot has a high-end car. There are also standards that are different from a private Catholic school as compared to a public school in the same area. Did you see the Charlie Weis piece on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago?

I bet if I used a few slang words you might not have any idea what they mean. The only reason you would not say they were obscene or profane is because you would not know what they were.

BTW, the coach I was talking about has used profanity before in games I have officiated. I do not recall that he was ever suspended for those words, but he was suspended for his comments that were seen very insensitive to those victims of the Holocaust.

Peace

That's not my decision as an official. That's between the coach and his or her administrators. Hell is not a word that I would think too many people take offense to. I wouldn't say a word to this coach in this situation. If a coach is using words are less suitable, like sh#* or the F bomb, I'll walk over and tell them to please watch their language so I don't have to address it with a whistle.

If I were put in this situation, I would just continue down the floor, as most people have said. Chances are, if you get him for this, you're going to get him again about 10 seconds after you call the first T.

IMO, he'll have only earned one of them.

No - but that doesn't change what is appropriate for a teacher to say. What is accepted (what would raise eyebrows, get someone fired, etc) may change from place to place, but in no case would it be consdered appropriate.

Also, the role of the coach is that of a teacher. That is how high school sports are set up. They don't have to attend college to become a high school (or grade school) coach. But they are expected to run their sport as an extention of the classroom.

Someone else said that you don't have the same climate as you do in a classroom in a game. That is correct - but it doesn't change the fact that it is supposed to be an extention of the classroom - not exactly like, but definitely not somewhere that obscenity or profanity is acceptable for adults to use around or toward children.

Often, even though they are supposed to be held to the same standards, that kind of behavior is tolerated, even accepted, by football coaches, some basketball coaches, etc (Bobby Knight, for example).

It is possible that I would not know what they mean, and so I would be unable to address that situation. That doesn't make saying them right - it just means I can't enforce the rules because I don't know everything. Again, a case of hidden meaning.

You're only going to warn for the F-Bomb? Wow... that is a tad too lenient in my book. Sorry - that is WAY too lenient in my book.

David,

You are flat out wrong. Not everything in this world is that black and white. Also I find it funny you want to get so worried about what is appropriate as it relates to language, but when it comes to mechanics standards you were willing to throw out those standards to fit your personal position. This suggests to me that different people from different areas are not the same.

Peace

I don't remember mechanics coming up in this discussion. However... as I clearly stated in that other thread, Mechanics are suggestions - Rules are Rules - It is suggested (however strongly) that you follow the mechanics for the sport you are officiating. The rules are to be followed - period. Otherwise, why have them? Why not just say "Take the ball out on the floor, decide how you guys want to play this game, and we'll decide what we would like to consider legal and illegal." - you wouldn't have a game - you'd have a circus.

And for someone saying something isn't black and white.. "You are flat out wrong" is very black and white....

The world would be a lot simpler if people would take things as much more black and white than they normally do. It's the areas of grey, expanded by people who don't like black and white, that cause most of the problems. Think of the rules of basketball, just as a simple example - most of the interpretations come from rules which are not as clear in a black-and-white sense, or because people read into the situation, making their own greyspace. I would say...this is the way it is supposed to be - so do it that way, and there would be a lot less problems.

You can say rules are rules, but this rule is very subjective. Even your explanation of what should be "appropriate" is not based on what the rule is. Now I have no problem with your application if it works for you. Knock yourself out and call a T every single time if you see fit. But the language then NF use is going to change from one person to another and is going to change depending on who we work for. Of course you can talk about what you will call; you use a term that is no where in the rule. I also feel that sporting events are an extension of the classroom, but every action just like in the classroom do not send you to detention.

What world do you live in? Obviously not the one I want to be associated with.

Peace

I think you are way out numbered with this philosophy.

COMMON SENSE. Do you call traveling in 3rd grade games? I dont unless the kid carries it like a football. Yet there are travels EVERYWHERE in those games! OMG, I set aside a rule!! But if I didnt, we'd be there all day and no one would have any fun. What about incidental to moderate body contact on a shot in the paint? It is drilled into to us to have a patient whistle there to see if the shot goes or not. Missed shot....foul. Make....nothing. Isnt this in a way, setting aside a rule? Or is it GOOD JUDGEMENT?

My point is we adjust the rules to each game and situation all the time so the argument that we make em up as we go isnt very good relative to the profanity issue.

True - but certainly isn't going to get ignored either, as some people said they would do on the basketball court. And I would certainly not expect the administration to ignore a teacher who is using language or talking to kids the way it was described in the original post.

Something is wrong with your phrase - But the language then NF use is going to change from one person to another and is going to change depending on who we work for - I don't know what you meant to say.


I would rather be in a world where the rules and expectations were spelled out clearly, and in general, people followed them. The "victim" mentality present in our world is based mostly on the greyspace I'm referring to. "Yeah, that's the rule, but I shouldn't have to follow it because...", or "Yeah, the coffee is hot, and I expected it to be hot, because I would have complained if you gave me lukewarm coffee, but because I spilled it on myself, I should be able to get money from you because you didn't TELL me in 5 different ways that it was hot." If the coach just took responsibility for his actions and choices (not using the language, or accepting the technical if he chooses to), things would be a lot smoother.

And yes, I know this isn't a perfect world. But I'll tell you what - when I taught middle school, I had 2 goals for the kids by the time they got out of having me for 2 years... Get ready for high school, and become more responsible for your choices. You choose to break a rule, you're choosing to accept the consequences. If you do something right and something nice happens, you don't complain - so don't complain when you do something wrong and something bad happens. Take responsibility for your choices in life. Now, I teach high school. I don't tolerate kids swearing in the classroom (and have been trying not to tolerate it at the basketball practices I run), and I don't tolerate it in any of the sports I officiate. And I certainly don't tolerate it from adults. And I still push the responsibility thing - if more people did, we wouldn't need as many lawyers!

I agree with that - but I think the rules should be written to accommodate these changes as well - I had a parent complaining about moving screens a few weeks ago in a 3rd-4th grade girls game. I had a parent last Saturday complaining because we blanked out the 24-0 scoreboard in a 3rd-4th grade girls game and started over - she kept calling out the "real" score... "It's 50-2!!" and complaining about us doing that.

As for the second situation, I don't agree. If the shot goes and we don't have a foul, it takes out the "and 1" - and leaves a lot of things open to interpretation that shouldn't necessarily be. And if that was how it was supposed to be, they would say that in the rules - if the basket goes, ignore the foul.

I'm just saying they left way too much greyspace in the rules...that's all. It means the game can be completely different from one game to the next, from one set of refs to the next, etc. And this doesn't make sense to me - it never did. The game is the game - why should one rule be called/enforced in one game, and not in another (at the same level).

So what's the difference between "appropriate" and "accepted"? Seriously, what's the substantive difference.

There are places where calling the T in the OP will relegate you to JH games the rest of your career. That tells you that the coach's behavior is accepted and appropriate, and that the T would be inappropriate. I'm willing to accept there are high schools where this behavior wouldn't be appropriate; but I'm not willing, as a ref, to go out on a limb and make this call.

I do not think many people said anything about ignoring the comments. I think most people said this would not warrant a T. Also I think people are looking at the context in the original post.

The NF, NCAA and I likely will assume the NBA does not use specific terms that are Ts no matter what. Even when the NF and NCAA talk about racial and gender comments, they never narrow it down to what they mean. Being a person of color I can tell you everything that would be offensive does not boil down to one or two words.

Huh?

Let us get back to what we are actually talking about. The use of "hell" is very likely not going to bring the same reaction in the classroom that you claim it is. If that was the case then I know a lot of teachers that would be fired. Remember we are not talking about the "F" word or other words that bring a strong reaction; we are talking about "hell."

Peace

The difference is between what is correct (not using the language) - that would be Appropriate. Accepted, on the other hand, is what will be likely to be dealt with by authoritative figures.

For example - Driving several miles per hour over the speed limit is not appropriate, because it is against the law. In some places, like my city, it is accepted, and you are very unlikely to receive a ticket if you are only a few miles above the legal speed limit. In some cities, you get a ticket for 1 mile an hour above the posted limit, and therefore, most people tend to go at or below the speed limit.

I don't see how, under any circumstances, you can say a T is "inappropriate" if it is supported by the rules. I can see the consequences of calling it in the wrong place, causing a liklihood of being assigned to lower level games - but to say it was the wrong call, because it is supported by the rules, is, to me, incorrect.

One of the main reasons for having points of emphasis every year is to address concerns the rules committee has about some rules being blurred, ignored, not enforced, or not enforced consistently. If people just followed them, and enforced them consistently, instead of making many of the non-judgement calls in the rules into judgement calls, we probably wouldn't need to have POE's, or certainly not as many yearly.

Several posters indicated they would "not hear" it (when the OP indicated it was clearly heard by both officials), or would choose not to address it.

I don't believe it is going to bring a HUGE reaction. However, it is going to being some reaction from most teachers, ranging from simply addressing the fact that it was inappropriate language, up to maybe a detention in some places. Some teachers would ignore it completely - i don't believe this is an appropriate response by a professional in that situation, but some will do it.

I do believe it has to be addressed - whether it is as a comment to the coach to watch his language, or maybe up to a T (which, as I said, even as rules oriented as I am, I would have trouble bringing myself to call without a former warning), it needs to be addressed in some manner. I would, as a parent, certainly not want some adult talking to my kid, even in high school, in this manner. I am expected not to talk to the students I teach in this manner.

But you are correct - other words should bring greater retribution. My standard is pretty clear - if I hear it, and i know where it came from, I will address it. If not, I have to simply tell the people in the area to watch their language.

Ok...lots of stuff on here about teachers, so a teacher will respond. Do I swear at my students - nope...never have, and hopefully never will. Do I conseider "hell" to be swearing - when it's used as anything other than a noun, yes. But I'm not sure what that has to do with calling a T in a game... in the OP, I would NOT have called a T, and doubt that I would have even said anything to the coach...that's between his players, their parents, the administration at his school, and the coach...

It may be incorrect BUT, 99.5% of officials out there know that if they call T's for the word "hell", it's a BAD IDEA! So what is the real debate here? Is it wrong for an adult to use any profanity towards a child? Yep. I still submit that this coach has plenty of eyes and ears on him and his actions are judged by the people that pay his salary. I am not going add myself to that group unless I think it will make that game better. A T for "hell" will wreck that game and likely my career in that league. Again - since we ALL know this.....WHAT ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT AGAIN?

I'd say the T would be inappropriate if it goes against accepted practice. IOW, if the original situation is considered okay in a given area, then giving a T for it is not appropriate.

By what standard do you claim it's always inappropriate to use the language, even if it's accepted in some places? Frankly, there are few words that I consider obscene or profane. Hell is not one. And to accept the use of "heck" in its place doesn't change anything; it certainly doesn't change the meaning.

I'm not talking about ignoring a blatant rule breakage. I hear the comment and determine it doesn't break the rules as I understand them. now, if he's directing it at me, such as "How in the hell could you not see that foul?" it's a different story. I'm not sure "hell" makes it any worse than "heck" would, either.

So you're holding the coach to a higher standard in addressing you than in addressing a child/player? I would hope they have a higher standard the other way - I expect respect, but adult to adult, I expect to take a little more than I would expect them to give to kids.

So that would mean that someone like Bobby Knight would have been fired YEARS ago, rather than being allowed to build up to the way he has behaved in the last couple of years. But because many people consider winning to be more important than developing character and behaving appropriately (since winning brings in $$, and of course that is the most important thing in everything, isn't it? (insert strong intent of sarcasm here)), that is the way things go.

You can't equate what we do as high school officials to what happens in a college game. I've heard coaches in some of my college games rant and rave at their players using profanity for every other word. At that level, as long as it's not directed at me, I'm not addressing it. You have to address this issue how your assignor wants it done. If I go out and T up a coach for hell, I'm not working for any of my current assignors for much longer.

You are confusing our jobs with the jobs of school administrators.

Larks,

You are exactly correct. None of us have to work with David, so it really does not matter what he thinks should be called.

Peace

But if you look at any of the college websites (I went wandering through a few), many use the phrase "Extension of the classroom..." - so in theory, they support this. But as I said, I'm referring to HS and below.

Not at all - if that was true, then profanity would not be a POE every couple of years. If the administrators were supposed to deal with that only, then why would it even be a rule - they could enforce it without a rule in the game if they didn't like it. They don't need a "game rule" to deal with it.

I file hell as a swear word under "Fight the battles you can win." Is it appropriate? No. Will I get anywhere by calling it? No. Save your ammunition for when you can make it count. Hell as a swear word is simple not a place to make a stand.

You will have a hard time making even harder words like (female dog) stick as a swear word. Fight the battles you can win.

Now you're just backing off, like in the Mechanics thread (you brought it up) to "do whatever you want, it doesn't matter anyway". And which I specifically said, in the other thread (again, you brought up the other thread), that that wasn't a legitimate response.

We had a guest lecturer at our opening officials/coachs meeting this year. His speech, for a half hour or so, focussed on the falling apart of our game. When we need to have games played at 4 in the afternoon in some cities, so they don't have spectators show up to cause problems...when you have to have games stopped and replayed because of officials feeling there was one fan that made one racial slur against them... when you have the NFHS picking sportsmanship as a POE almost every year... when I have a coach I watch chew out his team for, literally, 15 minutes, flinging profanity at the kids left and right, with younger kids around well within hearing distance, with parents watching and well within hearing distance, AFTER A SUMMER LEAGUE GAME... these all lead toward our game falling apart.

If we choose to sit back, and watch these things occur, and do nothing to #1 prevent them, and #2 address them when they do occur, we're not going to have a game to officiate anymore. Yes, using the OP word isn't going to cause the game to collapse. But our unwillingness to address similar issues - our "not hearing" things we don't want to address or have to deal with, etc... is heading down a slippery slope that will damage the game, and sports in general, in the long term. You will say "one word, no big deal" - fine - one word leads to another and another, and the line gets blurrier and blurrier... and eventually, there is no line anymore.

Bottom line - if you wouldn't tolerate a coach saying it to you, why would you tolerate a coach addressing his players that way? Would you tolerate him addressing the scorekeeper that way? How about the timer? How about the ball-boy? How about the janitor during the intermission? How about a parent during halftime or during the game in the crowd behind him? Where do we draw the line? The behavior is unacceptable, and needs to be addressed in some way. Whether with a T or a warning - not addressing it simply allows them to get away with things, which build to larger things, which damages the game.

Again - why would they make sportsmanship, of which the language issue is a part, a POE almost every year in most sports, if it wasn't important?!?

I have always looked at it, as in the black-and-white thing, as "I'm going to win anyway" - what I decide is what sticks. If I T up a coach, he can't appeal it. He can complain, and if I do it in a wrong way several times, I might not get games again in that area/league/etc. But in the end, he doesn't get to make the decision - I do. I would have no trouble getting either of them to stick. And I would rather choose the right thing to do, rather than the thing that is the easiest.

I had a player in soccer that I yellow carded for yelling "Jesus Christ" after missing a goal. The coach complained. I asked over a dozen soccer officials in the next several weeks, and they all agreed it was the right decision - so did our board when I asked them. The coach's theory was that it wasn't offensive to everyone - I said "had he screamed Allah, I wouldn't have taken offense at it - but I would have carded him the same, had he said it the same way, because it is inappropriate for a high school player to say that kind of thing".

There is no reason to keep debating this with you when you have it all figured out. People have been telling you over and over again like the other post what to do and they are much more experienced by all accounts. Also there are people that I personally have had many disagreements telling you that you are flat out wrong. If you feel you are right there is a reason why some officials get better shots than others. I know that might not seem nice, but it is the truth. And many here are saying their careers would be greatly affected by calling a T in this situation. I know mine would be affected.

You can give all the examples you like, it is not going to change my opinion about this.

Once again, there are things bigger than what the NF wants. If the NF wants specific language to be penalized at all times, they can put that in the rulebooks and we would have no choice. The NF is very vague just like the NCAA to allow for these types of judgments to be made. If you have a problem, you know who to contact to make that change. I doubt it will go far, but this is something you can try.

Conduct ultimately is up to the administration that hires them. Also, the timer and scorer might have words back. I do not know about you, but I am not standing right next to the timer and scorer. The only ball-boy I have ever seen in sports is in football. And during intermission I have no idea where the janitor is most of the time. And also it is not for me to know of every interaction a coach or player has with everyone in the gym. All we can take care of as officials is what we see and hear. My priority is not listening to coaches and their interactions with players and fans unless it happens during actual play.

Sportsmanship is not always about language. Sportsmanship is also about non-verbal communication and it also has very little to do with what is stated by the POEs. I was raised by parents that expect a certain level of respect that I would never penalize a kid for.

David, the NF does not hire anyone here. The NF does not fire anyone here. I will leave the conversation with that nugget. I will let you figure out what role that plays in this conversation.

Peace

:confused:

Moving the pivot foot after you pick it up is legal. That's called the <b>HokeyPokey</b>. You can't put your <b>HokeyPokey</b> foot back down on the floor though. That is illegal.

And that's my contribution to this stoopid f**king thread. :D

So in the end, it is not the NF who gets to decide what we do - it's the people that hire and fire us. Guess we should throw out the NFHS manuals, and get the "St. Christina Academy for Girls" or "Podunk Official's Chapter" rule books, and follow them - oops - we don't have those.

I don't have it all figured out - I just don't understand how you can have a group of people, officials or other, that have a set of rules to follow, and can choose at random and at will to not follow them, without consequence of any kind.

I'll drop off this thread now, since no one agrees with me on this matter either. Guess I don't know anything, and people who have been posting on here longer and have more experience know the best and only way to do things.

MY final statement on the matter - why have rules if we're not supposed to follow them?

That might be the funniest post I've ever read. Well said.:D

David,
I think it may be helpful for you to take a different outlook on this forum. There have been a few threads where you take a hard stance on things and will not budge or try to learn from others. I don't know what levels of basketball you work, but to move up you are getting lots of good advice from people who have been there. I've only been officiating for 6 years, but the one thing that has helped me move in the right direction is that I listen to other officials. Early on I had a few threads here where I got defensive about my position and didn't really listen to some of the advice given by more experienced officials. Over time I learned that they were, more often than not, right on the money and I made changes. There's nothing wrong with having your opinion, but when this many people tell you that's not the way to do it, you might want to take their advice. Not everything that happens on the court can be covered as right or wrong by the rules book. You have to use some common sense. It is not a black and white profession which is why we now sometimes wear grey shirts.:D

Wikipedia lists nine Crusades. Does that mean we have seven more of these ridiculous threads to wade through?

Dave, if you want to give a technical for that, go ahead. Seems like nobody else here thinks it's a good idea. But if you know that's how it's supposed to be called, then knock yourself out. I don't think you're gonna make many converts, tho.

What the Hell? Even, I know not to address this situation. It time to move on.

I'm going to defend David a little bit here...I don't have a problem with someone giving a T for what was originally said - I wouldn't, but if my partner did, I've got his/her back on it...like I said in an earlier thread, David Rinke appears to be very passionate about officiating and you can't really fault him for that. Disagree with him all you want, but he's got passion for the game...

Hey Scrappy, I bet if you stick around we'll have a lot more than 7 of 'em.

:cool:

David. No one said ignore the rule. Most of us are saying this doesn't fit the rule. It's a judgment call, though, and if my partner makes this call, I'm not raking her over the coals. I'll back my P in the game, and go to the assignor for guidance afterwards to find out how they want it called here.

My advice to coaches and players remains the same on this issue as it is on other issues. "Don't give me the chance to use my judgment, since you might not like my decision."

And his assignor will then de-nut him.

Guaranteed.

Calling a "T' for what was <b>muttered</b> in the original post could be a career-stopper. That one call might follow you forever.

JMO.

As a coach, I wouldn't talk like the OP to my players, but I have different standards than a lot of other people. That said, I cannot see a T for this. In regards to what is expected, I had a parent tell me about their kid's V baseball team, they weren't playing well and the coach ripped into them with a lot of swear words, where parents were around to hear it. The team went on a winning streak, and my friend asked me if I knew what the parents said. When I said no, he told me "F..ing A." That is the society we live in, and sometimes I don't think there's much anybody can do to change it.

Rocky, do me a favor and try a little experiment with your class tomorrow. Lay out the original post and ask your kids whether they consider that swearing and what they generally think of it. I'm kinda nterested in what their views are.

"Yeah, the coffee is hot, and I expected it to be hot, because I would have complained if you gave me lukewarm coffee, but because I spilled it on myself, I should be able to get money from you because you didn't TELL me in 5 different ways that it was hot."

Some basic facts about this legal case can be found at the link below. McDonald's was warned many, many times and failed to act. When told to reduce the heat from 180-190 degrees to 130, they didn't. The jury punished them as they saw fit. and the judge reduced the damages.

http://www.centerjd.org/free/mythbus..._mcdonalds.htm

I know it's not related to this discussion, hell (oops, I just got a T from David), it's not related to officiating at all. I just like for the facts to be reported correctly.

FWIW - I say no T for the incident in the OP

The best coach I ever had was my track coach in high school. He never swore at us, and he was also the most competitive coach we had. He never needed to, though. The best basketball coach I had swore at us exactly once. We'd been down by two and the road at half-time to the number one team in the state and lost by 30. He dropped an F-bomb in the locker room after the game.

I'll tell you what, since he never swore, it had a big effect on us as a team (we won in OT the next time we faced them).

I think a T in this case is ridiculous. If the problem is how he addresses his players then that's the schools problem.

Are you kidding me... Not in my lifetime would I call that a "T"...:eek:

It just.....wont.......die.....


And the results are in....

For the T: 1.5

Against the T: 98.5

Just wondering out loud here. Someone please quote where in the rules it says that the court is an extension of the classroom. Anywhere?

Where was the poll posted? I missed it.

It is the policy of the NFHS for all high school sports. It is also the policy of, at least in my case, being from PA, the PIAA as well, and I would hope most state high school sports associations. It is also the policy of just about every school district I have ever had any kind of dealings with, as a student, teacher, or coach.

SmokeEater asked for a rule quote. You are referring to policy. Those are two very separate things. In the OP it was asked if "How the Hell did you miss Smith on that play?" This was a coach muttering something to his player. Muttering is different than yelling. Is it worthy of a T?....NO. Is it something that the policy of the school, NFHS, PIAA, TASO, OSHA, FBI etc should address? That is up to the individual school/organization. In other words, do your job on the court, and let the other people care about what they need to care about.

EXACTLY!!

I also go back to....if you go looking for trouble, it will find you!!

I don't know why I got back into this after saying I was going to stay out.

Then mechanics, which are a policy instituted by federations, associations, or assignors, have no bearing on our game. Then league policies, which are not in the rulebook, don't either. Then policies about nondiscrimination have nothing to do with the game either. So I guess we can do whatever we want, as officials (or coaches, or players), as long as it isn't spelled out in the "rules".

I honestly do care whether a coach is swearing at a player or in conversation with a player. Whether you care or not, do what you want - ignore what you want, and watch the ethics of the world come crumbling down, because everyone who is in a position of authority, who is supposed to care about these kinds of things, feels it isn't "their" responsibility. This would be the slippery slope theory.

So I take it you'd watch someone getting robbed, and do nothing to stop it if you had the opportunity without liklihood of harm to yourself, because you aren't a police officer? Yes, quite different from addressing a coach for inappropriately addressing a player, but still an example of someone not interfering because it isn't their "job" or "responsibility". Or maybe it is - as a good person... in both cases.

Whatever... ignore whatever you want to ignore. I'll still choose to address it - if it costs me games, so be it - at least in the end, I did what I felt was right - and since I have to live with my decision, and I'm comfortable with it, end of story. I did what I felt was right, which is more than many can say - most say "Not my problem..." and if they can live with themselves with that attitude, more power to them. It definitely explains a lot of the lowering of standards in our society...

I wonder how you would react (or just think) for getting pulled over and ticketed for speeding 1 mile over the limit?

Absolutely false. Proper mechanics matter in varying degrees to the people who assign games. If your assignor places a large emphasis on proper mechanics, then mechanics have a big bearing on your game.

The mechanics prescribed by the NFHS have a bearing only insofar as local organizations, assignors, and fellow officials care about them. I know from reading this forum that Texas uses very different mechanics from some of those in the NFHS handbook. Where I am, we disregard the NFHS mechanics for certain situations, like time-outs.

Mechanics do have a bearing on our game, but not simply because the NFHS says we should do it a certain way.

As my pre-teen daughter would say, "Exaggerate much?" :rolleyes:

And the slippery slope theory is one of the most common logical FALACIES in the book. Don't use the slippery slope "theory", because it almost never produces a legitimate conclusion.

This is, quite honestly, the dumbest statement in this whole thread. Please don't equate "How the he!!" with physical assault and robbery.

That's fine. As long as you recognize the consequences and feel comfortable with them, do what you have to do. If you think that the other 99.9% of us are wrong, go knock yourself out. Is it possible that you're right and we're all wrong? Absoluely. Is it actually the case that you're right and we're all wrong? Sorry, but no.

Actually, I would think 2 things:

1) I deserve the ticket, and therefore, would have no problem paying it.

and (if I was in PA at the time)

2) I would think that, if the officer was following the rules, and ticketed me for "speeding" 1 mph over the limit, except in a construction zone or school zone, that he wasn't following the rules, since even at 65, the law specifies in PA what minimum amount you must be going over the limit for officers to give you a ticket, and at a minimum, I believe, it is 3 mph at that speed (larger margin at lower speeds).

But, as I said, in #1 - I was breaking the rules, and would pay the ticket because I did so. And no, I'm not making this up - this is how I would deal with it (and did so, for the one ticket I have received in my driving career).

Lets see:

1) Mechanics are not rules - and as you youself stated, they only carry weight as assignors and associations say they do. But, the point was - if all we are supposed to follow is rules, then mechanics mean nothing, as do the other things. You can't have it both ways...

2) No exaggeration - if you take care of the small things, the larger things take care of themselves. Don't take care of the small things, and the larger things just get completely out of control, eventually.

3) As I stated, there is a large difference between the robbery example and the language. But as I also stated, they both are an example of someone choosing to not intervene because it "isn't their job" - I clearly stated that the situation indicated no liklihood of physical harm to yourself - so you would stand back and watch? That is what I get out of your lack of addressing this issue.

4) "4 million teeth can't be wrong" - a saying from a commercial. The fallacy here is that the majority can't be wrong. Not the slippery slope theory. It doesn't work in every case - but we can see over the last 40 years or so, for example, in the use of language in TV, that as we lower our standards a little more and a little more, society follows suit. Language that would be unlikely to be heard is now commonplace in many places - because of a lowering of standards.

Sigh......:rolleyes:

If only Chuck Elias was alive and well.......

No where in my post did I say that i did not care, nor that I would ignore it. I answered the question of wether or not it was worthy of a T. I never said you were wrong in addressing it. One way of addressing the situation would be to report it to the PIAA, or whatever governing body is approiate in your state. Another way would be to drop an e-mail or phone call to the AD informing him of the behavior you observed. However, I still do not feel that it is worthy of a T.

Thanks for bringing up the situation about somebody being robbed. You just happened to pick the wrong guy to say that to....because of my job, I am legally bound to intervene if something like that is happening, regardless of the likelihood of harm to myself. However, for someone in a different position, there are more options than stepping in and trying to control the situation. 911 is a great option, then write everything down that you see and hear, then be a great witness to the police and to the court when you testify. Not all situations should be handled by asserting your authority immediately.

Neither can you. You are operating with a clear lack of understanding on this, David.

This is an unjustified overgeneralization, David. It applies to some things, but it does not make your HUGE exaggeration true.

My lack of addressing that issue is because the issue is ridiculous. There's no comparison between that red herring and the issue that we're actually discussing.

Notice that I did not say the majority can't be wrong. I actually made the point that it's possible for you to be right. In reality, however, you are wrong.

The slippery slope is not a "theory". It is indeed a logical fallacy that does not yield a valid (or cogent) conclusion. You can confirm that in any introductory logic textbook.

I'm done discussing this with you, David. Not because of any ill-will, but because you are clearly not willing to entertain the possibility that you might be wrong. So there's really no reason for me to add anything else to the conversation.

WRONG--The law states that you can be ticketed for driving in excess of the posted speed limit. The policy is for officers to not write tickets for anything less than three miles over. Once again, you have confused policy with rules.

If the OP had asked wether or not you should ignore the actions of the coach, your arguments would be valid. The OP asked if the actions were worthy of a T, and that has been answered.......and answered......and answered....

David, the point isn't that mechanics and policies don't matter. The point is that you can't call a T for a violation of policies if it isn't spelled out in the rules. Example?
Most states have a rule for how many quarters a player may play in a given day. Let's say you're doing a JV/Varsity double header, and A45 plays all 4 quarters of the JV game. Then he suits up for varsity, and you know for a fact that he played in at least 3 quarters; violating the state's policy of a maximum 6 quarters per day. You going to call a T because he violated state policy?

The point is you can only call a T based on the rules, not policies. Policy violations need to be handled off the court after the game by the proper authorities.

And yes, before you ask, if a coach was physically assaulting a player during a game; I'd likely intervene.

Actually, the LAW spells out those restrictions in the vehicle code in PA, regardless of any local department policies. The ones I am referring to are actual codified laws, specific to the use of electronic measuring devices for speed (and, as just about no one uses mechanical stopwatches anymore...).

I second this motion here as well .... :D :rolleyes: :D ,above reference to another thread.

The point is - the rules specify a technical foul for inappropriate language, and for unsportsmanlike conduct. They do not specify a T for the situation you specified above. The situation I mentioned is inapproprite language addressed from an adult to a player. This situation is covered by the rules, and supported by the policy of the various associations that specify that the sports are extentions of the classroom.

The debate seems to be more along the lines of "Is this inappropriate enough to count for a technical foul?" - Some say yes, some say no... if it was "muttered" loud enough for both officials to hear it... I would say it is loud enough and inappropriate enough to address. Substitute various other inappropriate words for the one that was used, and does that change your decision? Should it?

That's fine, and that's your choice. You have a choice in the game. But I am referring to someone who is not legally bound to act. You can choose to stand and watch it happen, or you can choose to intervene in various ways. You could physically attempt to stop the person, or you could call 911, or you could make a lot of noise to try to scare them off, throw things at them, etc.

Or you could choose to ignore it, as it isn't your "job" to address it in any way, which is what I am saying that people who choose not to address the coach speaking inappropriately to his players in some way. T or not? Maybe/Maybe not - I have said before I would have trouble giving the T myself - but I have also said I would not just ignore it - I would say something to the coach. If he snapped at me, I could consider a T, or just wait until he did something worthy of one and hit him with it then.

I honestly don't see how any intelligent person could defend himself in front of any kind of school board, review board, or the public, saying it was appropriate of him to swear to or at players for things they did or didn't do - honestly, I would hope any school board would send that coach packing if the coach felt that was an appropriate way to deal with students.

NFHS Statement
 

SmokeEater: FYI: From the NFHS web site:

Benefits of Cocurricular Activities

Activities Support the Academic Mission of Schools. They are not a diversion but rather an extension of a good educational program. Students who participate in activity programs tend to have higher grade-point averages, better attendance records, lower dropout rates and fewer discipline problems than students generally.

Activities are Inherently Educational. Activity programs provide valuable lessons for practical situations - teamwork, sportsmanship, winning and losing, and hard work. Through participation in activity programs, students learn self-discipline, build self-confidence and develop skills to handle competitive situations. These are qualities the public expects schools to produce in students so that they become responsible adults and productive citizens.

Activities Foster Success in Later Life. Participation in high school activities is often a predictor of later success - in college, a career and becoming a contributing member of society.

In the original situation posted, I would probably not have given a technical foul, or for that matter, given it any thought at all, however, here's a situation that happened to me a few years ago:

Small school girls varsity game. Small gymnasium. Medium size crowd. Crowd in bleachers on one side of the gymnasium. Both teams benches on the other side of the gymnasium, with no bleachers. Home coach is a new coach, who I knew personally from coaching with him at camps. New coach is doing a great job coaching a team that in previous years had been the league's doormat. First half. New coach's player makes a mistake that leads to a layup by the oppossing team. This player is now bringing the ball up from the backcourt in front of her coach. I'm with her as the new trail official. Coach says to her "Get your f***ing head in the game".

On the way out of the gymnasium, I went out of my way to "bump" into the athletic director, who I also knew from coaching at camps. I told the athletic director what a great job the new coach was doing with the team, but I had noticed one instance where he had used, what I thought was, inappropriate language for a high school girls team. I didn't want the coach penalized in any way, but I wondered if he could speak to him about it. The athletic director thanked me and said he would speak to his coach and he assured me that it wouldn't happen again. That's how I handled it. It seemed to work for me. I'm sure that many Forum members would have handled it in a different way, but like I said, in this specific situation, this seemed to work for me.

Thanks Billy. I don't question the intentions of NFHS nor David in these posts. I see that what you have posted clearly indicates what NFHS expects the benefits of participating in extra curricular activities. I still think that you would have to infer that (in this case) the court is to be an extension of the "classroom" even from this quote. It states that the activities are mearly an extension of a good educational program. Unless it says to me that it is an extension then I wont treat it any differently.

Respect the game, respect the officials, respect the players. Don't allow violence and don't cross the "line". It is most evident by the way this post has gone the "line" is different for everyone.

I understand why you handled your situation the way you did. I would have probably done it that way as well, unless he said it loud enough for everyone to hear and in a degrading or derogatory manner. Friendship or not their are some things you just can not allow to be said or done when public are in close proximity.
Once again, it comes back to every situation may require a different unique response.

This is my opinion, you are entitled to yours, and you may not be wrong.

Smoke

Okley Dokley, Drinkeii, give a warning, then a technicaliddly fouliddly.

Some would not only say it's not "inappropriate enough," but that it doesn't even fit the category of inappropriate at all. I'm only calling the obviously inappropriate. So, yes, it would matter if the word changed. He drops an F-bomb at his player, I'll address it. If it's just loud enough for me to hear, then I'll just have a word with him if I can find an opportunity. If he shouts it loud enough for the kids at the concession stand to hear, I may consider a T.

Personally, I'm not willing to stick my neck out for "hell."