Ncaa Blarge?
 

Did any one on this net happen to watch the Montana-Wyoming game and see the Blarge call? 30 seconds to go, Montana down by 3 defending. From the radio play by play it was an apparent double foul with trail calling an offensive foul on the driving Wyoming player and lead calling a block. Wyoming ball at POI. Turned out to not be a game decider as Wyoming turned it over on next possession but it sure was a play you don't hear/see too often.

In college do the officials immediately go to what they see or do they delay their call waiting for the official for whom the play is coming toward to make his call?

They go to what they see, evidently without looking at their partner. Same thing happened in the Carolina-Winthrop game tonight.

In NCAA-W there can't be a blarge, the two officials get together and make ONE call. I think the NCAA-M should consider doing the same.

I think in practice, 98% of the time at the D1 level, they are aware of the 2nd whistle but the official whose primary the play is in generally will take it without much conversation other then "I got it".

I agree. This is one difference where the women's rule is better than the men's rule.

The other way to simplify the matter is no preliminary signals. This is what gets everyone in trouble. If we simply just blow and wait to see who's area it is in and then yield to the official whos primary it is in, we would be okay. Just my 2 cents.:D

You mean, raise your fist and make eye contact? What a very basic thought!

Wonder why those that are supposed to be the best don't follow this basic fundamental? :(

Inquiring minds would love to know!!!!!:rolleyes:

Does anyone else think the number of blarges is rising? Last season I remember a week when I saw at least 3 on television games. I watched a NAIA varsity game the other night (I worked the JV before hand) and saw the L and T come out with PC mechanics right away on 2 plays. Luckily they both saw it the same way. I agree that the women have it right. With good mechanics, a blarge should not happen in my opinion.

I think the one problem we have is that we really want to sell that block/charge call and sometimes we get quick with our mechanics (human nature) with this call.

Most of the time the call is coming from trail or center to lead. That being said its real hard for lead to lay off the call or even hold off giving the prelim. We pre game just that. If the play is coming from C or T then lets just asssumee that L is going to sell the call first. If C or T has a whistle then hold off on giving a prelim. for a split second.

Unless the Lead is calling across the paint, right Tomegun? ;)

I honestly believe that this is the main reason why there are fewer problems with this issue on the NCAA-W side...we preach, teach, and pound into each other that it is the LEAD who should hold off on these whistles...let the T or the C take it all the way to the hoop. On the NCAA-M side, the Lead jumps all over these calls and that's why (only IMO) they end up with blarges.

it does happen a lot because the play is coming from the T or C most of the time and they have seen the WHOLE PLAY and then the L comes over quick and has to try and make the call, instead of giving it to the one that has seen the play the whole time! I agree with the NCAA-W on this one...get together and talk about it, come out with one call!

There was also a Blarge in the the 2nd half of the Winthrop/UNC game last night. Tom Lopes at lead, Bernard Clinton at trail.

This is one where the women have it right, the double foul/POI solution is a mess and looks ridiculous.

I work the women's side and will still pre game this. I'm not talking about the plays that are clearly in C's or T's primary I'm talking about those plays that originate in C or T but end up on L. We are more then likley to get a double whistle but L will usually want to go ahead and sell the call. Thats why we pregame for C or T to hold on giving prelim. for a split second.

Probably not a popular position, but if you truly don't give a crap what players, fans, and coaches think, then why is "selling the call" a huge issue anyway--especially at the expense of risking blarges. Just raise your fist, eye contact, and signal.

Agreed...I always pre-game it as "in a perfect world...but we know that...". We all know the L is gonna come out hard with the call...but in a perfect world, the L will be more patient and not hammer the signal right away.

Good point!! Just easier said then done sometimes.

It would be great if we all officiated in a perfect world wouldn't it?

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be any officials. All screens would be set legally, all players would shoot 100% from the field and the line, no one would turn the ball over, all coaches would exhibit sportsmanlike behavior, etc.

Hope the alarm clock doesn't go off anytime soon.....

I would disagree that it is better. This does not advocate good communication or trying to prevent this from happening. And everyone sees that your partner disagrees with you. I am glad the NCAA Men's have not gone the route with Women's side on this.

Peace

Well nobody was talking about preventing it from happening. What the post is referring to is if it happens. Whether its mens or womens we all try to prevent it from happening. What if it happens? Is it really better to call a double foul and go POI? I don't think so. This is what I like about the women's perspective. Why not get together and talk about it and make a decision as to what is the right call.

Which looks worse? Calling a double foul and going POI or getting together and getting it right? Either way looks bad!!!! The screw up already happened nothing we can do to take it back. Now what we have to do is get the call right with out penalizing the wrong player.

More power to ya. Nothing looks stupider than one guy going to the table with a charge and one guy going to the table with a block. You look like an idiot to the coaches.

I don't care what it advocates. I care about which call is correct. It simply can't be both a block and a player control on the same play. Can't. It's one or the other. Either the defender was in legal position when the contact occured on the torso, or he wasn't. It simply can't be both. So how can it be "better" to call both?

Yeah, but everyone sees that in the men's system, too; so that's not really relevant to which is better.

If you advocate an out for the officials then you eliminate prevention of this in my opinion. The coach that did not get the call has more reason to ***** about the call. At least the NF and NCAA Men's say that if the officials make this call we are going to give this a double foul. It is harder for a coach to complain in my opinion. They might not like it, but at least they do not feel the officials completely screwed them. If officials know they are only going to go with one of the calls, then screw it if I signal something I saw (without the appropriate communication) because it will not matter either way. Now that is my opinion, it does not mean you have to agree.

Peace

I have never had one in my 4th season of officiating, which includes all of the camps I have been to. (Knock on wood):D

Evidently your way isn't working because the men are still having problems with calling the blarge even though the men don't advocate getting together and get the call right.The point is you will never, never prevent it. Nobody is advocating it. To be honest nobody wants it to happen.

If you call a double foul in this scenario then @ least one of the coaches is going to be pissed. Especially if he/she thinks that their player was the player that didn't foul. I agree that either way one of the coaches is going to be upset. I just don't think that by getting together and calling the right call is going to upset both coaches. Both coaches are more likely to be upset if you call the double foul. This is why the women went to getting together and getting the call correct. Why penalize both players?

You would rather have two coaches yelling at you than one?

I do not how this got to be "my way." I do know if the officials on the floor followed the prescribed mechanics, this would not happen.

I would rather go with a double foul, then go with one of the calls and have the coach assume we picked the foul that would screw them. Coaches are already thinking we are screwing them. In my opinion, the Women's rule helps encourage that feeling. Of course coaches might understand the rule, but why put that doubt in their mind? Once again, this is my opinion.

Peace

I would rather have two coaches complaining then one complaining that the only reason we picked one of the fouls was because our only purpose was to screw his/her team.

Peace

[QUOTE=JRutledge]My fault....the men's way. I was referring to your stated opinion.

Instead pick the fouls that make both coaches think your screwing them...Hmmm I will take my chances with getting the call correct and penalizing just one player and not both.

[QUOTE=Gimlet25id]How are you guaranteeing you are getting the call correct? You might just pick the wrong one.

The bottom line is this should not happen. It is going to be a foul 2 seconds later than blowing the whistle too quickly and not making sure you did not see your partner.

As I stated before, this would not happen in the Men's side if the officials simply followed the mechanics.

Peace

I agree with you...this shouldn't happen on either side if we all were adhering to the proper mechanics.

When we get together we are not going to pick the wrong one. Most of the time the primary official will make the call. The official who's primary the block/charge happened in. The primary official is the one who is going to make the call. The other official who made a call is going to give information and leave it up to the primary official to make the call.

Just like if you had a double whistle with one being a foul and the other being a violation. The officials will get together and decide which call to go with.

JR, I understand where you are coming rom..IMO,I just can't see where it would ever be better to call a double foul instead on the correct foul in this scenerio.

I disagree. Most times, it's a secondary defender who has stepped in. Since the L is not watching the ball handler, he has a better look at the secondary defender.

In the Carolina game last night, this happened and the L clearly had a better look at the play.

You bring up a good point. If a secondary defender comes across to defend then if you have a blarge and if this is a women's game both officials will get together and in this case lead would make this call since lead had the best look @ the secondary defenders LGP>

[QUOTE=Gimlet25id]That's ridiculous. A double whistle---foul and violation, are two separate acts. Both whistles may be completely correct, but the determining factor is which act came first. A single act (block/charge) with two differing interps is not the same.

Don't take what I was saying out of context. My point was that there was 2 whistles and the officials got together to discuss the play. I don't care if its violation/foul or foul/foul. They still got together. The fact they got together and got the right call whether it was a violation or foul is my point. It's the same principle on the BLARGE. Both coaches want the call to their advantage. There is only one player @ fault not both. Neither coach wants a double foul..

I agree with this 1000%. It is absolutely, without a doubt, completely true.

It's also irrelevant. :D

It's going to happen. We're no longer talking about preventing the stupid mistake. We're talking about how to handle matters once the mistake is made. In my very humble opinion, I think the women's officials handle it better. Figure out who's right and go with that one.

After getting together with my partner, I always felt comfortable in telling a coach (for example) my partner had the walk, before I had the illegal screen, if that's what we had determined. I would never have felt comfortable in telling a coach my block call was better, or more informed, or more important than my partner's charge. Double foul ain't great, but it's most equitable.

I wonder if either coach said "But the ref wearing the side panels had the opposite call!!!"

How are you going to say what took place first when this is strictly a judgment call? You make it sound like there would be absolutely no disagreement on this. BTW, if the judgment is whether someone was in LGP or not, it would not be about what was first.

Peace

So you guys in Illinois defer to the ticket-taker?

What if your partner was absolutely sure that the defender never established a LGP. In a Women's college game it's really a easy fix. The calling official would simply tell the coach, "I'm absolutely sure your player never established a LGP..it has to be a block. About the same way you would say my partner had the foul/violation first.

If I call a double foul is the block/charge situation how is that more equitable? Your penalizing a player who doesn't deserve it. I know none of us want to admit that we are wrong but in this case, block/charge, one of us is. You think telling a coach that we have to go double fouls is better then explaining to them that we got together and we are sure such and such happened and this is the way we are calling it.

Besides when ever there is a block/charge one official is sure what he/she has. In the men's game even though one official is sure, it doesn't matter. Because his partner had a brain fart he has to go double foul. Its just awful hard for me to believe that any of us would like to do that if we knew that we had the right call!!!

If you both see different things, how are you going to decide who is right and who is wrong?

I had a block charge years ago in a 2 man game and I had the PC foul and my partner called the block. My partner did not have the angle to see the push off by the ball handler. At that time we had never worked together (I have worked with this official several times since) and we obviously did not see the same thing. Now I think I was right, but I completely understood why he felt he was right as well. The double foul takes the guessing out of the call. Once again, if you do not want this to happen, take your time.

Peace

Because as a crew, you've already proven you're not sure. Two people in stripes saw the exact same play differently, and whistled such.

For what it's worth, Marshall and Williams didn't seem particularly non-plussed about the double foul result in the Carolina game last night. Seemed to understand the rule-Marshall gave a half-hearted wave-off afterward. Went about as well as a blarge can go.

Please cite NCAA or NF rule defining BLARGE.

Both players can't be wrong... Someone is wrong and someone is right. @ the college level we have tape that is going to back us up. If my partner comes to me and says he/she is absolutely sure something happened then I'm going with it. If that person says that then they know the tape will back them up.

In the block/charge in the men's game the coaches are going to look @ the tape and they will know who was right and who was wrong. If you have a chance to get it right during the game then get it right. Because if this happens and you get together and one of the partners says that they are sure of what happened then go with it. The coaches will still look @ the tape but will see that the tape backs up the call. I know that the men's game doesn't allow this to happen they have to go with a double foul. In the women's game we have the opportunity to correct it and go with the correct call and only penalize just one player and not two.

99% of the time when this happens the official who should've not been calling the play is going to come in and say just that. They will say something like, "I didn't have the best look @ it and I should've not been calling the foul." Then your going to go with the primary's call.

JR's right to just do everything you can to keep it from happening.

There is none. In the women's game they came out with a bulletion several years ago explaing how to handle it if it happens. Read the previous posts to see how.

You were reading my mind!
This is something that I firmly believe should be talked about or trained on with perfection in mind. During the game things happen so trying to be perfect before hand could help. My thoughts:

• If there is a prelim, it should come from the lead
• If the play is on the C's side and the C has had the play the whole way to the basket, let the C make the call
• If the C doesn't make the call and the lead has a whistle, delay it enough for "Oh _____" to run through your mind

It still baffles the mind how many times the lead calls across the paint on ordinary, run of the mill, happens all the time, generic, simple, done it a million times, easy, why are you looking there anyway, if you want to look there you should have carried your tail over there, plays! Without fail, the lead will go tooting his/her tooter instead of letting the C do what they are there for. :D

Case 4.19.8 Situation C.

7-5-17...of course the word "blarge" never appears in the text
 

A.R. 159. (Men) A1 drives to the basket and (a) the referee calls a player-control foul and an umpire calls a block or; (b) the referee calls a charge and an umpire calls a block. RULING: This is uncharacteristic of a double personal foul where one official adjudicates the obviously committed fouls against two opponents. In (a) and (b), the two officials disagree that the fouls occurred simultaneously. In (a), the ball shall be awarded to Team A, the team in control, at the point of interruption with no reset of the shot clock. In (b), the two officials disagree as to whether there was a charge or a block, however, the ball was released by A1. Although there is no team control while a ball is in flight, when the goal is successful, play shall resume at the point of interruption by awarding the ball to Team B, the team not credited with the score, at the endline with the privilege to run the endline. When the try is not successful, play shall resume at the point of interruption with the use of the alternating possession arrow and a reset of the shot clock.

It still happens because of politics and money. It may be off the subject, but don't get it twisted. If a guy that is getting 80 games a year thought that would be in jeopardy, and a supervisor would really take those games, blarges would decrease immediately!

Can you say that with certainty?

To add to this good post, more times than not the lead will simply have a better look at this play than the T.

Not sure if I understand what you are trying to say?

No, but my chances of getting it right are far greater then calling a double foul. One thing is for sure, if I call a double foul then I would be wrong 100% of the time.

Wouldn't it be 50% wrong 100% of the time?

At least those odds are set in stone. In the Women's game you can't really give the odds because a dominant personality can trump someone who is right.

First of all if you really want to be technical, you could have a double foul in these situations. We just do not want to go there and rightfully so. We call double fouls in other aspects of the game so I do not know how you can make that statement. Also I was not talking about the players being right or wrong. I am talking about the judgment of the officials.

Here you go with the "get it right" line. I surely hope you have more to offer than that statement. You are "getting it right" when you are following what the rules say. If you pick one, someone is going to feel slighted. If you go with a double foul, you have a wash. It might not be the best thing, but at least there is not a question of "he did not give me a call night and here is another example." You make it sound like in the Women's game they will not look at tape and disagree with the foul that was decided upon.

It is not always about whose primary. It could be who had the play from the beginning. Or who had the better angle. There are trouble areas in coverage areas and dual coverage areas.

Peace

If officials were told to use the proper mechanics to eliminate blarges or their schedule will reflect, blarges would decrease.
Sort of funny like the NCAA tape showing all the mistakes from the previous year, during the tournament!

Ok how about this...

When I have a secondary whistle and the play is not in my primary - I almost always tell the other guy to take it (if he hasn't said "I got it" already). If it's in my primary, I'll say, "I got it" and then signal but I make sure he hasnt signaled first.

For me, the above approach does not seem difficult.

Of course I havent worked yet in front of the Cameron Crazies at Duke yet so maybe crowd noise plays a part.

http://www.mrkamoji.com/b_images/dukefans.jpg

When it's out of my primary, I may "think" block but if he comes out strong charge on the prelim,...I have no problem yeilding to his call unless I have something out of the ordinary....in which case I'll probably come torwards him to talk it out. Violation - Same thing...if I have a travel that preceded the charge, I'll go right at him to make sure he knows I am taking the violation call.

The key is to not give the pre-lim so quick IN DOUBLE WHISTLES. If you have a no doubt about it charge and you are the lone whistle - sell the crap out of it, why not.

Arent we really talking about awareness of other whistles especially in the paint?

I have no problem ending up with a double foul if we blarge it because it rarely happens.

How?

.

Don't get off point. Obviously I know we have double fouls elsewhere. For this discussion we are referring to the block/charge. JR, I don't care who you were talking about. My point is that in the BLOCK/CHARGE scenerio one player is right and one player is wrong. As far as the judgement of the officials one official is wrong and one is right. PERIOD!!! Someone was doing something they should have not been doing. It doesn't negate the fact that this still happens.
You have aproblem with getting calls or plays right? I would hope most of us besides you would want to get the plays right! First of all in the women's game we are doing what is correct. We can get together, discuss the play and make a dicision as to who the foul is on. The men's game doesn't allow that...and thats OK. My intial response was to those who thought that the women handled it better since it didn't require a double foul.

Your more concerned with the coaches feeling slighted then you are getting the right foul. Regardless if you call just one foul or two one or both of the coaches is going to feel,"slighted" as you would say. Have a wash? It's not a wash. My bad coach...I screwed up so to be fair I'm going to penalize both of you, so that way it will be a wash. What? You mean we now have to be worried about foul totals matching up and making sure that neither coach is feeling slighted? If we have a block/charge we are already wrong. No way out of it. Double fouls makes both coaches mad. One foul may make one coach mad. If the tape validates the call then who cares. The double foul will always be penalizing a player who didn't do anything to deserve the penalty. All because the officials made a error in calling the play. If anybody is going to feel,"slighted'" it will be the player.

So what if he/she feels that way. We shouldn't be concerned with that. Its not our JOB to be concerned with if they feel slighted or not. We should be more concerned with getting the call right!!!! Sure they very well might. But if I call the double foul then I'm wrong 100% of the time by penalizing a player that didn't deserve it.


So, now are you advocating calliing out of your area? Because on some earlar threads you were against it. You didn't care who had the better angle. You implied, that would be ball watching and you wouldn't be sure what your other partner was seeing or had seen.

IMO I like the way the women call the Blarge. It makes the most sense. Instead of penalizing both players it only penalizes one. Coming from a coaching background I would rather a official call one foul instead of calling a double foul especially if I knew that my player didn't do anyhting to deserve the penalty. I wouldn't accept the mentality that if I'm wrong then your wrong.

I understand. I agree with you totally!

You can call a double foul for many situations. You know this. Stop trying to act like you have never saw one before.

Whatever you say.

You are just another example of why the "get it right" philosophy is wrong. You are so concerned with your opinion; you are not really reading what people are telling you. "Getting it right" is an opinion. What you might think is right, to someone else would be done wrong. You should follow procedures and common sense whenever possible. If you get together what is likely going to happen is the stronger and more respected official is going to get their way. It will not be about actually being right. You might not every know who was right until film study. Even then that would be debatable.

I feel the NCAA Women's rule is stupid. You do not have to agree with me. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Whatever you say.


Either you do not understand 3 man coverage or you do not understand the conversation we had a while back. Maybe being in Indiana you do not work a lot of 3 man. But it is very common when the ball goes to the cup (where these blarges happen) the official that started the play takes it to its finish.

Good for you. You can think everything they do is right. I personally do not care. I did not ask for your opinion, I was giving my opinion. I know this; I will not have to worry about it because every code I will work under says this is a double foul. ;)

Peace

No kidding! Thats why I made the following comment, What does, "these situations" mean? We are talking about the block/charge, BLARGE situation.

Why is philosophy so wrong? Usually if partners get together the intent is to try and get the call right. We wouldn't get together to get it wrong.
Exactly why we would get together to see what we both had to make the correct call. I suppose that this is possible. I have never worked with partners where they weren't willing to take information from their parthers....I think because the most important thing is to, guess what......get the call right! Imagine that we actually want to do what we get paid for. Coaches could care less how you get to the right decision just as long as you get there.

Naturally I don't agree with you. I would never say that the Men's way of doing it was stupid. However I've been fortunate enough to work Men's and Women's and have experienced this call on both sides. Now granted you never want it to happen, but when it does you have to make a ruling. The Men only have one option, double foul. Neither coach was very happy. On the Women's we got together and made the correct call,(which by the way was validated by the tape.) Granted the visiting coach wasn't happy because she thought her player had a LGP, which she didn't. We explained that she didn't and that the contact was initiated by her player. She didn't agree but it didn't matter. The tape supported the call. We got it right. Mind you we could've gotten wrong, but we didn't. The one good thing is that we didn't have to go double foul and penalize a player that didn't deserve the penalty. We would have been 100% wrong if we had to call a double foul.

95% of the games I work every year is 3 person, anywhere from 75-85 games each season. I feell like I have a pretty good handle on working the 3 person system. Since most of the basketball I work is on the Women's side we look @ this different. We would rather the official who's primary the play happens in call the play. Most Blarges are always going towards lead away from either C or T.

I don't always think I'm right. I was merely stating why I like the Women's mechanic on handling the Blarge better. Then you directed your opinion @ me, I'm @ least entitled to a response.

Do you think that officials go out on the court with the intent to "get it wrong?" Just because you think you are right, does not mean you are right. This is the reason we have 2 or 3 of us out there in the first place.

You went on and on about ego in the other posts and you think there will not be any ego or strong opinions in this conversation. The Men's and NF procedure takes that the "opinions" out of it.

I have worked both Men's and Women's in my career too. This is why I do not like the Women's position. I really do not care what the tape says in this situation. The tape is not something that is going to be discussed until much later. I would rather take the judgment out of the official’s hands in this situation. It is not football and we do not need to debate fouls for a minute or two to make a decision.

This is why you like the policy. You have that right. I also have the right to think it is stupid and feel you will not get the "right" call that you will get the call that the crew's strongest official will take. You think a rookie official is going to go against a Final Four official?


Fine. Then stop trying to change my position. It is not going to change because you say it here.

Peace

Agree that there are drastic differences between the two. Thats why I didn't say they were the same. What I was implying was that if the Men's committee changes something it is after the women have adopted it already.

For example the women admin free throws with the two bottom spaces left unoccupied. The men are experimenting with this this year. The men now have adopted what the women have done for the last couple of years in allowing all subs to come on a multiple free throws when a injured or DQ'd . player goes out.

Not that the men will adopt everything just that when they do make a change usually it has happened on the women's side already.

Give me some examples about the NCAA Women's committee conforming to the WNBA, other then reporting with two hands. Which I'm sure will funnel to the men in the next couple of years. The women now allow a bleeding player, irritated contact or lost contact to be corrected without taking a required TO or sub if it can be done in 20 seconds. This will funnel across to other leagues because it makes the most sense to keep the game moving.

I'm not saying one side is better then the other. Just that most changes that happen start with the women.

I'm not going to read thru this little pissing contest you boys are having, but if you work ncaa-m or nfhs this is absolutely 118% wrong.

Also, BadNewsRef quoted NCAA 7-5-17 and A.R.159 and admits that the word BLARGE is never used.

That is my point exactly. What good is an interpretation if it does not have a rules citation to back it up? With out rule the interpretation loses all integrity and credibility. Without rule it is wrong. As is NF Case 4.19.8 and NCAA A.R. 159.

Let's quit being sheep following whatever the NF or NCAA says blindly. let's make them accountable by making case book interpretation based on rule.

Double fouls can happen but not when legal guarding position by defense is involved against a player with the ball. If the defense maintains LGP and contact is initiated by the ball handler then player control foul. If contact is made by defender who did not get LGP the the onus of responsibility to avoid contact is on him and a blocking foul is to be called. Same if the defense has LGP but moves into the ball handler instead of obliqely; block.

You can not ignore the rules of contact just because NF and NCAA do not have the guts to tell the officials to communicate and decide who had primary coverage and let him take the call.

.

FYI...At the regional clinic this year in Chicago, Mary Struckoff said that they are working on putting a case book together like the NFHS has. This would then eliminate the articles in the rule book.

If this happens then it will help clarify a lot of these types of questions.

OK.

I don't have an opinion 1 way or the other....although I will admit I've both given away my end of a blarge and taken control of my end of a blarge, counter to the rules.

But I usually do it the right way (double foul), and I don't think I've ever had an argument from either side...just a sort of dumb expression, nodding, muttering ok, that's fine, no problem...

edit: you might get the impression that blarges happen 3 or 4 times a game for me. They don't, I can count on 1 hand the blarges I've been a part of.

If you know anything about Men's experimental rules, they often are not adopted at all. So I would not be surprised if that rule is not adopted. It is not a big deal.

Could you name something specific? I watch these things closely and I cannot name anything that was specific to the Women's game that was just adopted by the Men's game. Many of the rules changes are made by both at the same time like the Team Control foul.

Like what? The women changed their coverage area, Men's stayed the same. The women allow walking and talking in reporting, the Men do not allow that you have to come to a complete stop. The Men require a stop clock in mechanics on fouls and out of bounds calls, the Women do not. Women have an airborne shooter rule; the Men have for a very long time never adopted one (at least the way it is administered, we already had this discussion BTW). Shot clock times are different. Point of Interruptions is different in a couple of areas. Guidelines for hand checking, post play, intentional fouls are a little different. I realize you want these things to be the same but they are not. I have seen the Women adopt a lot of things and the Men's side refused. Maybe I do not remember something, but you will have to tell me what the Men adopted that the Women had first.

Peace

Other then then extending the 3 point line what other experimental rules have they not adopted.

The biggest change I can think of is the table side switching.That happened with the women first and then after either one year or two went to the men.


Where are the POI's different other then our blarge conversation? I agree again that there are differences and that their will always be.

I'm not referring to POE. These have to stay different because of the different styles of play.

Let me rephrase @ least in the last couple of years most of the changes that are happening are happening on the women's side. I agree there are some that are happening on both. I can't remember...when was the last major change the men made without the women making a change?

I'm sure the men will go to two handed reporting soon. The bleeding/contact player rule will funnel through.

You never answered my question. How are the women trying to be like the WNBA?

Remembering these as I sit here and watch the game. Men went to Lead bouncing the ball to sideline throw ins that are below the free throw line extended.

As I think of them I will post them.

Also I know that the men were experimenting with a block/charge circle and the wider lane. So Rut you may be correct on the fact they rairly adopt experimental rules.

What extension of the 3 point line? You are the person that made the claim they adopted everything, what did the Men's committee adopt? Can you give 5 examples? Just 5 examples should be easy if you claim they adopt everything.

OK, but they did not adopt any other mechanics. They have not adopted the two handed reporting.

You might be right about this, but the Men's have a could of different foul designations than Women's. Intentional Technical as an example. And I believe there was a foul that was not at all on the Men's side that did not go to POI. I am not sure if that changed, but that was a difference the Men did not adopt.

I seriously doubt that the two hand thing is coming Men's side. For one the NCAA Men's has done a lot to stay totally away from the NBA and their mechanics. Once again the Women adopted almost every procedure and mechanic from the NBA and the Men decided to not use them. So I do not know why you think two hand reporting is coming.

Dude are you serious? You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

Peace

Well, if I'm going as well, I might as well have someone show me the way... ;)

If he sticks around, he'll figure it out.

Now, I guess I'll stick in my two cents. I think sometimes the discussion becomes territorial: men's game vs. women's game. But, I still cannot understand the rational behind calling both fouls in that situation, because, by rule, either one happened, or the other, but not both. I think Rut has it right that we are allowing this call so that we do not appear to be "screwing" one team and coach out of a call. But since when do we base our calls on how the coach feels? I hope never.

This situation should never happen, with proper mechanics by a crew. But, stuff happens. And, in the case of the NCAA-W, I believe they have it right - either there was a block or a charge, but never both. So get together, come out with one call, and continue on with the game.

I'm not going anywhere. I enjoy the back & forth debate with Rut. I've learned that Rut is passionate about what he believes and will defend it to the end. Nothing wrong with that. The debate tends to lead to other discussion's that sometimes gets the brain moving the right direction and it has allowed me to learn a few things.
I agree. Lets just get the foul that matters. I'm not at all for penalizing a player that doesn't deserve the penalty.

[QUOTE=JRutledge]This wouldn't happen at all if we all followed the proper procedures, would it? Bottom line is we don't. It has happened in two DI men's games already and it's the first week. I'm sure it has happened in a women's game as well, we just don't have the coverage of it. IT HAPPENS.

Your right. Its always preventable. The point is that it happens and it will always happen. The debate has been... which way is the best way to handle it after it happens?