Jump Ball strange one
 

The referee tosses the ball to begin the game. A1 jumps up and slaps the ball as hard as he can. The ball sails directly into his basket without touching the floor.

Two questions:
1. How many points are scored for Team A?

2. Exactly when is the AP arrow initially set and to which team?

3 points. AP would be set towards B after the made basket and the ball is @ the disposal of the B team

Are you sure about that? You might want to check your rules book. ;)

Funny play...Did this happen? Let me correct my self. Since the jump ball was not actually secured by a player until after the throw in after the made basket the arrow would be set towrds A basket. @ least that is what I take by the AP rule. If I'm wrong please enlighten me...

What if Team A steals the ensuing throw-in pass? :D

This question was posed to me today by one of my fellow HS officials after he saw the ball put directly into the basket from a jump ball held in the FT circle during an NBA game last night. (That player actually caught the ball with one hand and tossed it in, so the officials correctly waved off the basket for the jump ball violation.)

In the play you wrote. If I'm reading the AP rule correctly, Rule 4 Section 3 Art. 3 a,b,c. "The ball is placed @ the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before [B]A players secures control.[B]
b. The free throws for a noncommon foul
c. A common foul before the bonus free throw is in effect.

So in your play, player control never had a chance to be established. So as in B. Once the ball is @ the disposal of the thrower from the B team the arrow would be set towards A basket. If A steals the ball then the arrow would still set to A's basket since it was originally @ the disposal of the B team.

Did any of the items that I underlined occur? Nope. So article 3 doesn't apply to this situation at all.

Right. They didn't happen specifically. However parts from each helps us make the right ruling, since your play isn't any any rule book or case book.

1. Player control couldn't be established because of the made basket by the A team.
2. Just as in after made free throws, after a made basket as in your play. The ball is placed @ the disposal of the thrower. ( one of the exceptions to the player control option to set arrow.)
3. The sam ewould be true if it was just a common foul. The ball is @ a disposal of a thrower.

In all cases if the ball can't be in player control as in the ball reboundiing off of the rim instead of going in then the rebounding team gains player control which would set he arrow direction. In your case the ball went in. No player control can happen so that takes us to article 3.

Hope its making sense...

Actually, I think that 4-3-1 probably covers it, but we just have to wait a bit until the ball is controlled inbounds. Of course, it is not entirely clear that this rule applies since that article ends with the words "as after the jump ball." Some may construe that to mean that article 1 only applies to jump ball situations. If that is the case, then this situation truly is not covered by any existing rule and 2-3 would have to be invoked to set the initial direction of the AP arrow! :eek:

You will notice that I don't ask simple questions on this forum. When I ask a question it is usually because there is some uncertainty in the rules. ;)

While it is doubtful that this situation will ever happen, I posted this in the hope that someone will read this and deepen their understanding of how the AP arrow is initially set.

No doubt that it will deepen your understanding of the AP. I will have to disagree that we would have to wait for the ball to be controlled inbounds. In this case we are talking about setting the INITIAL direction. Not adminstering a AP Throw in.

So instead of going to 2-3 I 'm sure we can adminster this play under 4-3 and be just fine. We're really not relying on 4-3 art. 1 but more importantly 4-3 art. 2-3. We've had a score regardless if its free throws or a basket I'm sure it would be the same.

I'm enjoying the discussion...

Since this one isn't covered by anything in the rulebook other than 2-3 (elastic power), I go with the setting the arrow in B's direction as soon as the ball passes through the basket.

So you don't believe that this part applies in this situation?


RULE 4, SECTION 3 SETTING DIRECTION OF INITIAL ARROW
Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when:
ART. 1 . . . A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball.
ART. 2 . . . The ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower after a common foul when the bonus free throw is in effect.
ART. 3 . . . The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.
b. The free throws for a noncommon foul.
c. A common foul before the bonus free throw is in effect.
NOTE: This procedure is used only to establish the alternating-possession procedure. See 6-4 for using the procedure and reversing the possession arrow.

I go with setting the initial arrow to Team A once B1 has ball at his disposal for throw-in. I would consider that as "A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball."

Really??? :confused: You believe that constitutes player control?

I think I agree with this one, too. It can't be as soon as the ball goes through the basket, b/c we could have a foul before the throw-in team has "control" for the inbounds pass.

I also don't like waiting until the ball is controlled inbounds for the same reason. A1 has the ball for the throw-in and A2 commits a common foul before the ball is controlled inbounds. If the arrow doesn't get set until control inbounds, then Team A had the first "possession" of the game (their throw-in opportunity) and they get the arrow (when the ball is given to Team B for the throw-in following the foul). That doesn't seem right to me.

After the FTs for a non-common foul, the arrow is set when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder for the throw-in. Although there haven't been FTs, this seems like the most reasonable answer to me. And even though there isn't player control or team control during the throw-in, there is "control" in a looser sense of the word. Team A obvously "has the ball" for the throw-in. I just think it makes more sense than waiting for control inbounds.

No, I don't.

I'm guessing that you're next going to ask me why... :D

I agree with those who said it's not covered.

So, I'm using 2-3 to set the arrow toward B's basket -- under the theory that A's score constitutes the first "posession" (an undefined term) and B should have the next AP.

Do you really need possesion to score a goal? A tip is not possesion, and still counts as a goal.

B is getting the first possession after the made basket. Why not give A the arrow?

Poss is not a requirement as team A can put the ball into B's basketball and team B is credited with 2 points. No team B Poss.

Let's revisit the value of the points that will be scored. Is A1's slap of a jumpball toss considered a try for goal?

No, but it doesn't matter.

There's really only 2 ways to set the INITIAL direction of the AP arrow. It all revolves around either a player in control of the ball after the jump. (this would be in all cases where the ball was legally tipped and recovered in bounds) Once its controlled inbounds then the arrow is set to the opposing team:

OR the second;

Would be if no player control was ever gained then you would go to the the throw in. When setting the INITIAL direction, as soon as the ball is @ the disposal of the thrower then the arrow would be set toward the opposing team.

This is completly different then adminstering a AP throw in. All we are doing is setting the initial direction and not doing a AP throw in.

Has to be three point basket. Doesn't have to be try. Any ball that goes through the basket that is trown or tapped behind the tree point line by the offensive team assuming it doesn't hit anybody on the way will be a three point goal

Case Book 5.2.1 sit.B

by definition player control can only exist on the floor holding ot dribbling the ball - and not durring a jump ball -
so you could only set the arrow when the throw-in after the basket is legally completed, the arrow would be set to the other team!

Wow this is some good stuff. I think if this occured, team A would get the AP first, provided team B made a successful throw-in.

Here's what I got:
4-12-6
Neither team control nor player control exist during a dead ball, throw-in, a jump ball, or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

4-3-1 Setting Direction of Initial Arrow
A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball.

4-3-1 is stating player control. However, during a throw-in, this doesn't exist. Therefore, once there is player control after the throw-in, I would say you would set the arrow in the opposite direction of whoever secured control. So if B is making the throw-in and A steals it, under my thinking team B would get the first AP.

That's probably way too much thinking and probably way, way off. But, that's what I've got.

But, I can see going with Bob on this one and using 2-3. Either coach probably wouldn't say a thing if you gave team B the first AP.

Either way, if this occurred, you can bet I'd blow it dead and take care of it ASAP. Fire away...

I have to disagree with this. The throw in doesn't have to be completed in this case. It would in AP throw in's which this isn't one of those.

Rule 4-3 art. 2,3. When setting the INITIAL direction the ball only has to be @ the disposal of the thrower.

But there aren't any fouls, free throws, or violations. The only thing you've had is 3 points for team A.

If it isn't covered by rule, and it appears that it isn't, then look for a precedent. If the jump ball is tapped out of bounds, when is the arrow set? When the ball is at the disposal of the thrower? If there is a common foul during the jump, when is the arrow set? When the ball is at the disposal of the thrower? So why wouldn't you set the arrow after a basket off the jump when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower?

Somebody agrees with me!! :)

Hmmm, well thinking a little more, I think I'm on board with at the disposal of the thrower now. Due to the fact, that if it wasn't set at that point, and the thrower broke the plane and team A grabbed the ball and you had a held ball...who would you give the ball to if the AP hasn't been set? Using the theory of once the throw-in is complete, if you had a held ball, you'd have to re-jump it since the AP wasn't set.

I'm going with at the disposal of the thrower.

Don't worry about the answer....
 

:D sign the kid up for volleyball. :D

Right on!!!

I can see arguements for either way - and I think you could explain it either way and have it come out okay but I will see if I can get official answers to the question.

I am probably showing my ignorance here but how is this situation different from A1 (jumper) tapping the jump ball out of bounds? Except for that fact that it is now a dead ball, how is possession arrow determined now? Is it once the official hands the ball to the thrower or after the team gains control inbounds?

Nevada came up with a great play that isn't covered in the rules.

The rules cover what to do to start the alternating possession arrow on fouls, violations and even on jump balls that end in the old fashioned normal style. What is not covered is what to do when the jumper puts the ball into the basket off the jump.

btw...are we sure he tipped it & didn't punch it?? That's my answer...punched ball violation, wipe out the 3 pts, B's ball, A's arrow :p

A try for goal

A player is trying for a goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for a goal.

On a jump ball does the player have the ball as in "the player has the ball"
and
Do you really think he attempting to throw the ball...

or is he aimlessly just batting the ball
and
if he is struck on the arm during the jumpball are you going to call a foul. Maybe even contract with the hips or other part of the body

Food for thought...

Are you pointing out that the batted ball is not a try? I'll agree with you there. But (and I'm sorry if this sounds rude) so what? Are you saying that it is a 2-point goal and not a 3-point goal? I think it would be 3 anyway, as somebody (maybe Bob J?) pointed out above.

4-41-5 . . . A tap for goal is the contacting of the ball with any part of a player's hand(s) in an attempt to direct the ball into his/her basket.

5-2-1 . . . A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

;)

this has to be a two point goal because there is not shot attempt involved here.

Reference, please? ;)

It's a judgement call as to whether it's a tap or a bat.

True, but, if this happens...I'm giving him/her 3. You gotta throw them a bone just for pulling it off. ;)

Tanner, there would be nowayinhell I would ever call that one a "bat". He <b>deserves</b> three.:D

I have great respect for your opinion
but where is the judgment here?

It is a Jump ball it is a bat

Rules citation to back that statement up?

Would 6-3-7-c apply?
"ART. 7 . . . Neither jumper shall: ... c. Catch the jump ball."

What he said
But also it is completely the opinion of the official in a situation like this if it is a try - you can call it a shot or try if you want but you will have to beat the tape on it.

Nope, if you catch it, you will then turn it into a "thrown ball" anyway as per rule 5-2-1(violation aside, of course). A "thrown ball" is a 3 too.

Does the tape read minds?:D

Sometimes I think that the evaluators hire Mis Cleo to look at the tapes. :eek:

I see where you are comming from and agree that it would be neat to award the three points - but you set a precident that may haunt you later -

Ex. Same game where off the opening jump ball you awarded a three-point basket for the "TAP"
4th quarter with 2 seconds to go in the game team A down 2 bringing the ball up in the back court, the ball gets away from A2 and with B2 and B3 closing in on the ball A2 swings his/her hand to tap the ball forward and hits it hard enough that it flys down court hits the backboard and goes it the basket.
Does Team A win or do we have overtime? :confused:

of course your moment on ESPN is guaranteed for life if your game ever has this. :cool:

Score 3, game over.

I was thinking that if the ball was under control, then the player has caught it, so has violated and the basket is neither a 3 nor a 2, but a 0.

Easy here, 3 points. Closing seconds, one can easily surmise that the player was trying to get it into the basket.
In fact, if he hits it that hard, I'm willing to make the judgment that he was trying to score, no matter when in the game it happens.

It's a three. It doesn't matter if it's a try. It only matters where A touched it last (assuming the ball doesn't hit the floor between the time A touches it and the ball goes in the basket). See all the cases 5.2.1A through 5.2.1D

There are 3 case plays that justify scoring the basket 3 points ill regardless if it was a try or not.

Case play 5.2.1 Sit. B "....A ball that is thrown into a teams own goal from behind the 3 point arc scores 3 points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an actual try for goal."

Case play 5.2.1 Sit. C A1 throws the ball from behind the 3 point line. The ball is legally touched (same as touched during jump ball) by (c) A2 who is in the 3 point area.....Ruling In (c) score 3 points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the 3 point line.

Case play 5.2.1 Sit. D ....the fact it was not a tap or a try for goal does not effect the scoring of 2 points. (In our play scenario it was a ball that went in after being hit behind the 3 point line.)

Okay you win!

Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy would say, "What is someone sick?" :p

You don't need anything besides the word "regardless" there. See the first Case play that you cited for an example of correct usage.

Ahhhh, already we miss our dear friend Chuck.

Thanks for the help. Feels good to be back in school...by the way I already know I suck @ this english/grammer thing. Appreciate the motivation!

Don't think that we are picking on you. This is just one of the ways that we have some fun with each other on here. See JR making fun of my spelling of "waive" in the NFHS Question 68 thread. :D Besides it does help to better our writing skills as we discuss basketball officiating. Since we are striving to improve that aspect of ourselves, why not improve ourselves overall at the same time?

BTW, you nailed the FT lane space question about the team only having one player left! :) Nice work.

It's all good. If this gets to me then I better just give the whistle up as well. I enjoy the back and forth. Gets the brian in gear for the season.

And don't think he isn't reading some of what we have to say!

Poor Brian. He must get picked on a lot.

Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy's interns still need a lot work. How did they let this one get by?

:D

They have just accepted the fact that, "it is what it is!"