substitute or not
 

After the ball becomes live to begin the first quarter the offficial notices that A-1 is wearing an illegal jersey. A-1 plays the entire first quarter and enters the court to start the second quarter. Official assesses A-1 with a technical foul. Is the official correct?

My question--is A-1 consided a substitute at the start of the second quarter or is he still considered a starter? Based upon 10-3 article 2 (penalty) this makes a real difference to the above question. This was discussed tonight at one of our meetings and we could not reach agreement. Any help would be appreciated.

If the ref noticed the illegal jersey in the first quarter, why did he allow the player to continue to play with it?

I think the official is correct, tho. Why does it matter if the player is a sub or not?

No, the official is incorrect. This has to be caught prior to the ball becoming live to start the game or the player must exit the game and then re-enter. During the intermission between quarters the five players are still players. No substitution has taken place.

RULE 10, SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
...
ART. 2 . . . W ear an illegal number or an illegal shirt or illegal pants/skirt.
PENALTY Art. 2) Each violation is penalized one time if discovered prior to ball becoming live for each designated starter and each substitute who enters.

Rule change 4-34-1, 2. PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL.
I always thought the time frame between quarters is concidered to be 'intermission'. So, now during intermission, all team members are bench personnel.
If A1 comes back onto the court, he/she can be assesed a 'T' for illegal uniform. NO?

You may want to check out case book play 3.4.SitB too--<i>"The five players of B cannot be penalized <b>unless</b> they are <b>replaced</b> and <b>are penalized before the ball becomes live on return</b>".</i>

See casebook play 3.4SitB. A1 was never replaced.

It matters. You can't penalize 'em after they're in the game. If they go out and try to re-enter though, you can penalize them <b>if</b> you catch 'em before the ball becomes live. If they haven't been substituted for between quarters, you can't penalize them.

No. A1 was never replaced by another player.

JR, thanks for the help.

Finally found the place, eh Zooch?

Welcome to this forum.:)

So then as soon you notice it, send the kid out for having his shirt untucked.

If it's a dead ball and if the player hasn't already addressed the problem.

Whatintheck are you talking about?:confused:

Wearing an <b>illegal</b> shirt is completely different than wearing a <b>legal</b> shirt that is untucked. They have completely different penalties.

It was a joke. I meant to just find a reason to send the kid out so he'd have to be replaced. Then when he comes back in. . .

Oh.

Nevermind then.

JR,
This is the best discussion site so far. To all, keep up the good work!

So what we are saying here is that even though the player is in the game and becomes legal - when the ball becomes live - then if you take him out and bring him back now you can penalize for the illegal jersey?

There is no provision in the NCAA book that covers you either way if he goes out of the game and comes back in that I can find and I believe that once they are legal you can not make them illegal again.

Only one technical can be issued even if I send four people in the game with illegal jerseys, - so if I take them out of the game later and bring them back in you are going to issue another technical for one or all who enter again?

This seems to defy logic.

I don't think this is right. NCAA 10-12a says that you penalize "offender" with a single indirect technical foul whenever discovered before the ball becomes live. So if he goes out, and then comes in again, you can penalize it before the ball becomes live. However 10-12b says that if multiple players have illegal jerseys, it is penalized with a single indirect technical foul.

Which brings us to. . .

This is true for NCAA, as I just pointed out. But in high school, I don't think this is true. Uniform technicals are listed under 10-3 in the NFHS book -- those are PLAYER technicals. The case plays in 3.4 seem to indicate that each shirt is penalized.

You can only be penalized once if you have to change the scorebook to match the numbers of several players. But that's different from the jersey actually being illegal.

NFHS rule 10-3-2PENALTY says that <b>each</b> illegal shirt is penalized one time if discovered prior to the ball bevoming live....

It might defy logic, but it doesn't defy NFHS rules.:D

So NFHS rules defy logic? :D

I will conceed the NFHS ruling of each shirt being penalized but it is only penalized one time.
So in other words they can buy their way in for the rest of the game with a technical.

But I still have a problem with the player who became legal being given a Tech later in the game however I can see where it could be interpreted that way.

Rules like allowing a head coach to call a TO do.:)

I would agree with that!

THe case is clear -- there's no other way to interpret it.

Now, has anyone enforced it? Would you?

No and no.<i></i>

Ditto and ditto.

Back when the numbers 1 and 2 were illegal, I handed out T's for illegal shirt. One was like the original post. I noticed the illegal number when the player commited a foul. I made mention of the situation to my partner, then we got both coaches together an explained the situation. No Tech at that time, but when the player reentered after being replaced then the T was applied.
Also, during warm-ups, of a different game, I noticed an illegal number. Got my partner and both coaches together. Talked about the situation. Since no other uniforms were available, they agreed to let the player play without applying a 'T'.