fashion police?
 

I was at our state rules meeting last night. I would estimate we spent 2/3 of our time talking about uniform issues (headbands, wristbands, jewelry, etc.) It was all good information to have, but to me, there are more important issues to discuss, especially when we actually have some coaches in attendance and listening. Did anyone else have a similar experience this year.

Yup. Our RI even stated that this year we are worrying about uniforms the most. He also got the point across to the coaches that there's no warning for the coaching box. It's one and you're done.

I'm glad to hear it's not just us. I wish they would just make it all illegal or make it all legal. Like I said, to me there are more important things we could be dealing with. Great for you guys on the coaching box. We don't have that here (our boys coaches are seated), but it's good for you to have the state taking a hard stand on it.

It's going to be interesting the next few years, regarding the coaching box. Personally, I think it's going to go a way within the next few years. These coaches in IL just don't realize how good they have it.

even in SoCAL it was a huge POI -- I mean how can these players here worry about uniforms they have more important things to worry about like whos house they will have their party at and if daddy will buy them that bmw they wanted.

On a serious note however I hate the fashion police idea but it was drilled to much to us that the FED wants it dealt with this is one thing my pride will have to be swallowed and I will have to be anal about it. I dont like it but it wasn't just mentioned in passing. After 10 slides and several top officials and administrators going over it and about 1 hour of brainwashing I have succumbed. In all games starting in December -- which is when our tourneys start I will be enforcing these rules -- the higher the level the more anal I will be.

My only fear with the way this went and will go is that there will be several officials -- more rather than fewer -- (the reason I feel this way is that I would rahther build relationships with these younger players who I as a ef would hope to see again at the higher levels and already have a repore as someone who will work with players and coaches than be an a$$ -- JMO)who will treat jimmy on the freshman squad with the same letter of the law attitude as Franky on the Varsity squad. I think the uniform rules should be a pyramid of severity of punishment. The lower levels in these cases should be allowed to almost get away with murder before assessing T's and ejections and whistles and arm movements and what not. However at the varsity level after game 1 there should be no need to offer more than 1 warning. These coaches should know and the kids what's acceptable or not and it should be smooth sailing. I guarantee if any official T's up a kid on a varsity squad for one of these infractions as long as that coach is working it will never happen again -- that I will guarantee. Unless Chuck or JR start coaching that is, then we could have many recurring incidents for rogue fishnets on the court but I hope I dont see that day anytime soon.

We let our girls coaches stand and I really don't mind it. I think it can lead to good communication, but the box has to be enforced. Our state put the boys coaches on the bench and the current head of the state says they will not get up again as long as he is in charge.

Interesting, when it comes to sportsmanship, most officials, including me, crack down on unsportsmanlike conduct more at the lower levels, and then talk to the kids a little more as they move up. It's all in how you approach it. I take the nip it in the bud stance and take care of business more in lower level games. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I haven't heard this stance from too many officials.

as JR likes to say APPLES TO ORANGES -- or is is CARS TO BURGERS

unsportsmanlike and uniform issues are 2 different things.

Absolutely. I let a little more go uniform wise at the lower levels because they are a little younger. I don't expect a freshman in high school to have different colored undershirts and such. I guess I view the lower level games as more of a learning environment. I always inform coaches and the players about the uniform violations, but more often than not I let them in the game. Of course this is the total opposite of my view on sportsmanship where I take very little unsportsmanlike behavior from lower level players and coaches. Maybe I need to work on my own consistancy:D

Are these uniform infractions "T"-able offenses? I thought we were just removing players from the game until they corrected their infraction(s).

if a player doesn't get it or a team keeps being addressed for the same infraction what are the options?

If i have to address 3 different subs about something after I have told the coach to make sure to fix X there is only so much talking one can do and eventually a punishment has to be doled out. what do you guys think.

I mean a T is last option but it is an option.

I hoping when you send the number 1 D-1 recruit in the conference to the bench for a uniform infraction that message reverberates to all those in attendance.

You can not throw a T for most uniform infractions. All you can do is keep sending them to the bench. The only uniform infractions that warrant a T are wearing an illigal numer, shirt or pants/skirt. Penalties for other infractions such as an illegal headband is they do not participate until it is changed.

Let me just say that the day I make a call and worry what those in attendance think about it should be the last day I work as an official.

Secondly if I ask said number 1 D-1 recruit to remove an arm band and he comes back in the game with the same arm band now what-- Do I say "Hey number 1 D-1 recruit I asked you to remove that and you decided that you wont so since you are the number 1 D-1 recruit I will bow to simply be in your presence." As soft as some of you might think I am for this guy to be the Number 1 D-1 recruit he should know that if an official asks him to fix something he should.

So I can see what you will do -- but I will at the least asses a delay of game warning to said team for forcing me to stop the game while said player had to fix something I ALREADY asked him to fix. If its the second warning then a T will be administered. But since he is the Numbe 1 D-1 recruit maybe I should just not do that and give him my whistle as well or maybe give it to a fan because I am SOO concerned what they think of my calls.

Unless you thought by last option you figured that my last option was my first option. I expected more from you badnews but I try and treat every player the same sometimes thats tough like in this instance -- I mean the number 1 D-1 recruit. I should only be grateful to be in his presence. [/endsarcasm]

[edit]Junker what do you do for the same infraction repeated by the same player or team after it has been clearly addressed? There has to be a penalty in place than just saying hey go back to the bench and get it fixed again.

Since you seem to not comprehend what I said I'll spell it out for you.

Those in attendance = coaches

Once #1 D-1 recruit gets sent to bench I'm thinking the coach doesn't want it to happen again to him/her or any other player(s) on the team. If you want to whack someone, whack any thick-skulled head coach when he/she comes out the box to argue your nit-picking of the rules.

Since you seem to not comprehend the message I was trying to convey I'll spell it out for you.

Those in attendance = coaches

Once #1 D-1 recruit gets sent to bench I'm thinking the coach doesn't want it to happen again to him/her or any other player(s) on the team. If you want to whack someone, whack any thick-skulled head coach who comes out the box to argue your nit-picking of the rules.

You don't stop the game for him/her to fix it, you send him/her back out the game, or better yet, notice it while he/she (no, i'm not talking about transvestites) is at the scorer's table and do not allow him/her to check into the game.

The player simply is not allowed on the floor until the uniform violation is taken care of. I don't know how it could go on reapeatedly as most kids want to play above all. There is no T in the book on this and one cannot be called.

It depends on how the coach approaches me -- just because he comes out or question this doesn't mean I am going to whack him right away. Use common sense.

Besides this is how THIS conversation will go

Coach: How could you go that coach?
Me: Coach I have asked him to address this same issue about 5 minutes ago? I also let you know of why I sent him back to the bench last time you tried to substitute him in did I not?
Coach: Yes you did but how could you T me up or give me a second delay (whatever it was)?
Me: Coach how could you not fix something I asked you to just 5 minutes ago? how could your player not fix it as well after I asked him as well? Coach what else am I supposed to do when I ask you and your player to do something and both of you ignore me?
----now how this will continue if this is you
Badnews: Coach I am sorry that this upsets you and your Number1 D-1 recruit let me just recind my T (or whatever the penalty was).
Coach: Good boy, good boy -- heres a treat.

I mean really I am the last person who wants to give a T and from past posts I have made it clear that I am more lenient giving T's but dont mistake that for me not having the testicular fortitude to have to call one when players and coaches are just ignoring what I am asking them to do. My leniency should not reflect on my ability to have to be authoritative I just approach it differently then some guys here and by the time I give out a T usually players, coaches, administration, fans, even Bill Walton will know why said T was handed out. Its not really my fault that a thick skulled coach cannot grasp the concept of -- "Coach your players cannot enter the game with an arm band on their bicep" -- and coach looks at me and says "Ok" then sends a player to sub in with bicep band and I send said player back out to fix it and tell the coach "Coach I just told you they cannot do that". Honestly next time I would not even beckon said sub into the game unless there were others there -- and if said sub had bicep band I would send him back out and penalize with a delay of game. If thats the second one they hey its a T -- but nowhere there will I feel guilty because I spelled it out to the coach and I would have mentioned it to the sub and I would have told the coach earlier that these infractions I will make the sub wait till the following dead ball to enter the game.

His lack of enforcing his responsbilities is not my problem. I tried to work with him and address it but after a while you HAVE TO transition from talk to action.

Now I know you can't read AND you're an a$$hole. But I digress.

If that's how coaches and players around your area are then there is something very wrong with the public education system where you live (as witnessed by your lack of comprehension and your inability to interpret anything that is not explicitly spelled out for you).

What kind of dumb-@$$ coach would keep allowing his player to ATTEMPT to re-enter the game with the same dumb-@$$ uniform infraction over and over again. And I would think the player would get tired of being sent out of the game. But hey, maybe that's how they play the game in your area. Must be a regional thing.

By your logic, you apparently have whacked your share of players for failure to keep their shirts tucked, right???

wait, let's see http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...t=29126&page=4

deecee...as a fellow official, I appreciate your enthusiasm.
But, that's about where my appreciation ends.
You are a realatively new official...at least you sound like one...and you come in here talking to much, IMO.

Give it a couple of years before you start spouting philosophies and incorrect rule procedures. Heck, you're still wet behind the ears and you're talking like you are a know it all. You seem argumentative when a veteran official trys to talk to you. Dude, that's not going to get you far...at least not in my region.

As far as letting lower level players (Frosh, Soph, JV) get away with things.
Again, you have a total opposite view of what the veterans around here want. We like the lower level officials to enforce the rules the way they are written...that way when the players get up to Varsity ball...we don't have to "train" them...they already know what is expected. SHOW the veterans you have the "balls" you talk about having instead of just TALKING.

And listen a little more...IMO.
Take it or leave it.

I, for one, wish the coaches would just get this uniform stuff taken care of once and for all. I'm tired of "baby sitting" teams about uniform violations. This fall I have not had one girl's game -- USSF soccer, HS volleyball, or MS basketball that I haven't had to make the girls unroll their stupid shorts before the game starts or make them fix them during play! Then they whine, "Why can't we wear them rolled?" To which I say, "Because the rules say they have to be worn as they were manufactured to be worn." Or there are the boys who want to wear their shorts half-way down their butts and their shirts hanging out all of the time. This is the coaches' job. not ours!

Live ball, conact? Sounds like one that shouldn't have been called.

Mregor

Shouldn't you have given an intentional rather than a T?

since we're all piling on deecee...
 

or a flagrant PERSONAL foul.

I like the delay-of-game warning, and it makes sense - but I don't know if it is supported by the rules. I guess you could say it is a situation in which the team is not ready to play, so therefore it is a delay situation.

No, David, it is not supported by the rules. It is not one of the four different warnings outlined in the rules.

You can issue an immediate "T" to a player delaying the game under the language of R10-3-6(a), but you should be very, very careful in using that one imo.

My association's first meeting is tomorrow night, so I'm sure we will talk about all the headband/sweatband things. Personally, I hate all the fashion rules: shirts in, pants up, headband colors. Has anyone ever been confused by the wrong color headband? These rules should be enacted and enforced by coaches and AD's, in my opinion. I wish the NFHS wouldn't drop them in our laps.

I agree with the "be very careful" with that one... but I have had situations where I have come close to whacking a player for several of the "Not delivering the ball to the nearer official after it becomes dead" because they make a point of making you come get it, or "allowing" it to roll away from the officials in an unsportsmanlike manner.

BTW, what about considering that (the original situation) unsportsmanlike conduct? That's a technical foul - refusal to comply with directions given by the officials.

No way am I ever calling this a T, that is a huge stretch. They don't get to play until they are wearing their uniform properly. A good rule of thumb for calling T's is to call them when they will improve the game. Calling this a T will not improve your night.

Even in cases where the problem is repetitive? This is the third player with the same problem, or the third time with the same player having a problem? Even after warning the coach? I'm thinking of a T after these - not the first time... or even the second for that matter.

There's no need to T them up. They stay on the bench until they are in proper uniform. They'll get the picture after having to wait until the next dead ball a couple of times. If it's the third time it happens, you need to go to the coach, explain the rule, and have them get their players in their uniforms.

David, are you really delaying the game by not allowing a sub to enter or by sending a player out?

You're trying to kill a mouse with an atomic bomb.

I'm not giving a T unless the guys mouths off at me. Just keep send him ot tnebench. He'll get ot the coach will get it. Use my old coaching Butt to Brain technique. Stick his butt on the pin enad pretty soon his brain ususally kicks in. If he's brain damaged and doesn't figure it out his coach ususally will. Or he sits. IMHO a T is probably going to backfire on you in a big way.

Only if you think it was intentionally done to "show you up."

That will be approximately never.

True, as always you can't speak of absolutes in our line of work.

Agree. That's always true.

I guess this is why I like the concept of the color cards in soccer - a yellow, being a "formal warning" that makes very clear where you stand, and if you continue, you're out. It doesn't penalize the player or the team in any appreciable way, because they can come back in pretty quickly, and they don't play short. A "T" penalizes the player and the team... seems like there should be something between warnings and T's.

Basketball has formal warnings. There are 4 of them for delay of game. Soccer and basketball are entirely different sports. What works for one will not work for the other. At least I'm assuming so because I now absolutely nothing about soccer. More formal warnings would just lead to more work for the scorer's table and many of them can't handle what they do now.

Not quite the same - a formal warning that lets everyone know that you are designating a specific activity or behavior out of bounds for the players or coach. I didn't mean formal in the sense of the "warning for delay", but more formal than "if you do that again, I'm going to T you up" or "that's not appropriate" or "I don't want to see that again" - the card makes sure everyone is clear on the fact that they have been warned.

They are different sports - I don't know about entirely. Both involve attempting to score goals of some kind, both are timed, both have rules and penalties. Basketball and Swimming are totally different. Basketball and track are totally different. Swimming and Track are similar, in the way that Soccer and Basketball are similar. What works for one will not necessarily work for the other, but there are similarities, and some things do apply to both. For example, jewelry rules are the same for both in NFHS - how you deal with jewelry violations differs.

You can do the same thing in basketball. If I warn a coach, it will be clear to anyone watching or near them that they have been warned. I step back, put up one hand giving him or her the stop sign and say firmly, "Coach, that's enough". Now when they complain again and get their T, everyone knew it was coming. That's just the way I was taught to do it.