30-Second Time-Out
 

NFHS Rules:

Rule 5, Section 12, Article 5: "Players shall remain standing within the confines of the bench area during a 30-second time-out".

Rule 10, Section 4, Article 4c: "Bench personnel shall not stand in the team bench area and must remain seated except during a charged time-out, as in 5-12-5,".

Rule 4, Section 34, Article 1: "A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission".

During a thirty-second time out, are bench personnel allowed to stand up during the charged time out, or are only the five players allowed to stand up ?

I think that bench personnel are allowed to stand. Does anyone have any additional Rule Book, Case Book, Exam, or Refresher Exam citations to support my case or to support the answer that they are not allowed to stand up ?

Rule 5-12-5..."<b>Players</b> shall remain standing during the confines of the bench area during a 30-second time-out".

Rule 4-34-1..."A <b>player</b> is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission".

Is this an intermission? Nope.
Are "bench personnel" also "players"? Nope, rule 4-34-2 separately defines bench personnel.

Ergo, bench personnel sits and players must stand during a 30-second TO.

I guess I don't understand your answer or reasoning because as I read it, 10-4-4c clearly allows bench personnel to stand during a charged time out.

Bench personnel shall not:
ART. 4 . . . Stand in the team bench area while the clock is running or is stopped, and must remain seated, except:
c. During a charged time-out, as in 5-12-5, or the intermission between quarters and extra periods.

Your logic doesn't work. The rules you cited only specify who the players are and what the players are required to do. They don't give any indication about what non-players are permitted to do or restricted from doing. By your interpretation, the head coach would not be able to be in the huddle with the five players since he is not a player.

10-4-4c says all bench personnel can stand during a timeout....without reference to the length of the timeout.

All team members may participate in any timeout.

Additionally, the coach may be substituing someone in and is not required to have them report until the 10 second reamining point. They do not become a player until they are brought into the game by the official. Are they not permitted in the huddle?

The purpose of having the players stand is not to seperate them from the rest of the team but to facilitate getting them back on the floor more quickly so that play can be resumed. Having the bench personnel standing with them will have no effect whatsoever on this goal. If the bench personnel can't get 5-10 feet to their chair before the players get to the throwin spot, they wouldn't even be on the team.

Well, Camron, rule 5-12-5 says "players <b>shall remain</b> standing...during a 30-second time-out".

Are you prepared to call a technical foul on any member of the bench personnel that doesn't stand? Or do you simply tell them <b>all</b> that they <b>must</b> stand? And how can bench personnel <b>remain</b> standing if they weren't allowed to <b>be</b> standing before the 30-second TO was called?

Somehow, I don't think that your logic is working very well either.

[QUOTE=BillyMac]NFHS Rules:

During a thirty-second time out, are bench personnel allowed to stand up during the charged time out, or are only the five players allowed to stand up ?
_____________________

Instead of a rules reference, I'm going to refer to common sense -- which isn't nearly as common as it used to be. Don't overthink this one.The intent of this is to aviod delay in the teams coming out of a 30 second TO without delay. Some teams will try to drag this out, bring chairs on the courts, water, etc. The new clarified distinction between players and bench personnel does not infere that others than those on the floor at the time of the TO aren't allowed to participate in a TO huddle.

But Woddy, it doesn't say anything about what bench personnel are required, allowed, or forbidden to do. I think that's Camron's point. I would think that since there is a rule that specifically allows bench personnel to stand during a "charged time out", that they could stand. Why would that not be the case?

Citations Please ?
 

Official Forum members:

Please note the additional citation (thanks Jurassic Referee) and some added boldface edited to my original post.

Thanks for the opinions, including some common sense (thanks refnrev), but I would really like some additional citations to support either side, Rule Book, Case Book, Exam, or Refresher Exam. I need some strong support for one side or another by Monday, October 30, 2006, for a New Members Clinic.

I'm with Cameron and Juulie here. The rules state that bench players may stand during a charged timeout. This is an allowance. The rules state that during a 30 second timeout, the players must remain standing. This is a restriction directly aimed at the 5 active players. It doesn't address the bench personnel, and the rule allowing the bench personnel to stand during a timeout doesn't say anything about being in effect for some timeouts and not others.

Let them stand.

Adam

Sorry to rain on your parade ref, but apparently you don't read the obituary section of your newspaper often enough. This one recently ran:

OBITUARY: THE SAD PASSING OF COMMON SENSE

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend,Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long Ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm, life isn't always fair, and Maybe it was my fault.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouth wash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job they failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer Panadol, sun lotion or a sticky plaster to a student; but, could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.
Common sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband; churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar can sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.
Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by three stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else is to Blame, and I'm A Victim. Not many attended - his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.

So, no more common sense. Back to the rule book.

This was quite funny.
 

And some wonder why they are getting passed up by other officials or never get a shot at the better games. Why do we even care what the bench personnel do in this situation?

Peace

No, again, it only refers to the players. The players must remain standing. It places no requirement on the other team members to either stand or not.

Additionally, there is NO penalty specified for the players not standing. If they choose to sit, what is the call. Nothing!

We Care
 

We, the members of our Board's Membership Committee, care because our Board has 35 candidates that need to pass the Exam to become new members of our Board. We also have 250 current members with 10% of their rating and ranking, which determines the level and number of games that they are assigned to, based on how well they do on the Refresher Exam.

You are missing the point. I am saying that even if you know what the bench personnel. Even if you know what the rulebook says, there is no way to enforce this other than "Guys you have to stand." Then in the real world, most competent officials do not care what the bench players are doing at all. Usually what happens is all players stand and this is never an issue. The reason the requirement is for players to stand is so there is not a long delay in getting the game started after the timeout. The NF has gone back and forth on whether standing is what is required or not.

Your answer is also the reason that these tests do more harm then good. Now you are going to have some young official that feels they have to go out of their way to enforce this and likely T someone up because of the way this test is worded. Every year I hear of an official that feels they need to take some extreme action based on something that was in the test. Because after all, most tests do not ask you how to actually enforce the rules, they only test whether you know what something means or the exact definition is. But that is a conversation for another day. ;)

Peace

Players must stand and they must remian in the bench area, meaning they cannot wander down to the opponent's bench area.

Bench personnel can stand during any charged TO but are not required too.

The rules posted are the only references needed.

Shhhhhh.....I'm having fun.

We now resume our regular programming.

I've always wondered why Common Sense can tell you that "the early bird gets the worm", but can't tell you that "the early worm gets eaten".

Welcome back to Standard Time everyone, I enjoyed getting my hour of sleep back.

Good question. Along the same lines - why do we park on the driveway and drive on the parkway?

J-Rut -- I totally agree -- is this the board #6 way?

this sounds like the first step down the path of immortality.

Agreed, but this part makes it sound like the rest of bench personnel MUST stand.
That is not what it is actually saying, but I see how someone could take it that way.
I recall reading somewhere that the official is supposed to direct the players to stand if they go sit down during a 30-second time-out. They need to comply immediately. If they refuse, they are subject to a team technical foul.

me thinks this is in regard to those 5 that were on the court when the timeout happened -- THEY HAVE TO REMAIN ON THE COURT -- they cannot sit.

other then them standing i dont care if the other players sit, stand, get water, go to take a pi$$. On a 30second timeout there is only a limitation for the active 5 to remain on the court -- if the coach subs one out and he sits then that is fine. I don't think this has ever been an issue in any of my games and I cannot recall anyone ever mentioning a 30second timout nightmare like this

Yeah, those five are the PLAYERS. See the definition provided in 4-34-1.


If you understood the definiton of a player you wouldn't have written this. There are no "other players." There are only those five. The rest are properly called team members.

i would love to hear how you talk to coaches -

you: coach your team member got a T for swearing
coach: which player got a T?
you: none of your players got a T -- it was that team member on the end of the bench
coach: which player's number?
you: coach its not a player its a team member
coach: ummmm.....

please to damn technical here -- if i had a link to the death of common sense article i would paste it here

Actually, deecee, I call them "bench personnel." ;)

Lou: You the coach of this team?
Bud: I certainly am.
Lou: You got team members on this team?
Bud: Certainly!
Lou: Is dat one of your team members right there?
Bud: Why, yes he is.
Lou: Well, then, what's that player's number?
Bud: Which player?
Lou: Dat one, right there!
Bud: He's not a player.
Lou: Look, he's on the team, right?
Bud: Naturally.
Lou: So he's a player for your team, right?
Bud: No! It's halftime!
Lou: But he's a member of the team!!
Bud: Now you've got it.
Lou: I don't even know what I'm talking about!

Of course we're (well, I'm) not going to be that specific in most interactions with coaches. But, on an official's forum, it behooves us to us the proper vocabulary, especially when it makes a difference in the rule interpretation.

Bob, I agree. When discussing the rules in an online forum diction is important. That is the point that I was trying to make to young deecee.
His response as well as that of Chuck's was certainly amusing! :)

Now just to mess with his head a bit more I will note that, a team member sitting at the end of the bench can be charged with a Player Technical Foul even though he is not a player! :D

i reitre -- you can watch the ceremony on espn4 tonight.

Conflicting Citations
 

I've finally come across some additonal written citations, besides the three pertinent rules that I've already posted from the 2006-07 Rule Book, to support whether of not bench personnel are allowed to stand during a thirty-second time-out, or if only the five players are allowed to stand up. Unfortunately, they are conflicting citations:

2004-05 Simplified and Illustrated Rules, page 41: Shows an illustration of a thirty-second time out with only the five players and head coach standing. Bench personnel are shown sitting on the bench in this illustration.

2001-02 Rule Book, Comments on the 2001-02 Rules Revisions, page 72: Requirement To Stand During A Thirty-Second Time-Out (5-12-5): "Additional discussion reflected concerns about whether or not substitutes should be permitted to join the conference with coach(es) and players. Because of instructions that may be given, the interpretation has been that team substitutes should be able to participate in the time-out meeting."

In my opinion, the Comments on the Rules Revisions in the Rule Book, "trumps" the Simplified and Illustrated Rules. Unless I hear otherwise from my board interpreter, I'm lettting the bench personnel stand during the thirty-second time-out.

It doesn't need to trump it. The S & I shows a situation, not the only legal situation. It makes no mention that those players that are sitting are required to do so...nor does the picture imply that they must.

This is the correct understanding. It is what you need to follow.
The NFHS committee clearly discussed this issue and decided that the non-players should be allowed to stand during a 30-second time-out, if they wish. So please let them! :)