Men's Rec Leagues
 

I have been working a lot of men's rec league games the past few weeks to get myself in shape in preparation for the upcoming HS basketball season.

For those of you who work men's rec leagues, is it just me or are most of the people who play in these leagues big whiners? I really don't like to give Ts during these games since we are expected to "take it easy" and let them play the game. But some of my games, I really couldn't help it. They were screaming right in my face. I figured if I don't T them up, the abuse will only get worse.

One thing that I noticed piss most of them off is when I call all reaches. I've learned from experience (in real HS games) that when I let these go, it would only get worse and the game would get more physical and fights might break. Should I just be more lenient with calls and "let them play"?

Sometimes I wonder, am I really that bad an official that they complain about pretty much everything, both calls and non-calls.

What do you think? Any advice?

Find some other way to stay in shape for the season and quit! The league is hurting your officiating skills more than it is keeping you in shape!

I think you should officiate games like this. I will tell you why:

1. You are still referring to fouls you call as "reaches" which tells me you may need more experience
2. You think you are supposed to take it easy on players may indicate a need to work on managing a game - there is no way you should let someone get in your face and yell
3. In my experience, coaches and players will whine at the high school level (college level for coaches). We have to learn how to handle it.

I think all officials should do rec leagues to a certain point and then decide if they want to continue or not. Personally, it isn't a big deal to me because I'm going to call what I'm going to call and the players (in Phoenix, Las Vegas and the Washington DC area) eventually understand that all the BS they try will not change it. Once an official feels like they can handle/manage rec leagues then they can decide if they want to continue doing them. I'm not saying officiate a league where you are threatened or anything like that. I just think rec leagues can be a useful tool for improvement.

How is the league hurting his officiating skills? I think he can approach a rec league game with the same philosophy as a high school game. Of course, that is up to the official.

Can you tell us what level of HS games you normally officiate and where you live?

You can not put a rec league game and a HS game at the same level. It is so much different. I am guessing that the masses will overwhelmingly agree with me that he should stop working. The number one reason to quit is because it doesn't sound like he is having fun.

I'm not even suggesting that a HS game and rec league should be at the same level. However, I've officiated some rec leagues that I would rather do than a HS game. I guess it all depends on the area where an official lives and the particular rec league.
Are you saying the masses of officials or the masses of officials on this board? Nobody should do or not do something based on what the "masses" will do.
I will ask my question again, how will officiating rec leagues hurt his game?

Well, it ain't you.:) I assign rec leagues and I usually have a hard time getting officials for some of them, especially the adult rec leagues. They've cleaned up their acts some but their past reputations still follow them. I've got people that just absolutely refuse to do them.

In my experience, officials will do adult rec leagues for two reasons only:
1) Money.
2) They think that the game experience will help improve their officiating skills(which it will imo).

Personally, I would never do a rec league game unless I was absolutely sure that the league and my assignor would back me up completely if there were any problems. If they won't, then it's just not worth putting myself in that position. Jmo.

I agree with Tomegun. All games can lead to improvement if approached the right way. A lot of scrimmages are not fun but I would work as many of those as you can.

Most rec leagues around here appreciate a tough consistent rules oriented approach to managing their games i.e keep T'ing them up until their teams, teammates, or rec league administrators require compliance.

I think I am just reponding to the leagues we have where I live and if there are good rec leagues that you can improve you skills work them, but it seems that is not his situation.

Around here, rec leagues are often worked by officials who are very lax about their mechanics. No switches except on shooting fouls; just report from the spot of the foul; no TO positions; etc.

Yes, you can still work on your play-calling, but it's very hard to work a mechanically-sound game in a rec league. That could hurt an official who is serious about his/her HS schedule.

I understand your point that a lot of officials won't work rec league games. But, my point is more officials like you should do your association/all officials a favor by straightening out these whiners by consistently applying the rules on behavior instead of not working those games. That, in itself, is a skill.

Most rec leagues around here have a limit on the # of T's a person can receive during a season. Even rec league players ain't completely stupid -they will comply if they really want to play.

When I agree to do a game it is because it's going to benefit me as an official as well as the league. If I'm not having fun and don't want to be there, it will reflect on how well or not I do the game. That is when I will get more than usual whiners

after 3-4 years of doing these I just recently retired from adult rec league. you can learn all you want after 1 year as far as game experience. But all these are are glorified pickup games with hasbeens, hasnots, hascants, and hasnevers. Best thing to happen to me was to stop giving a rats a$$ during these games because plainly most of these guys are jerks.

However in the 3-4 years I actually met some stand up guys albeit few but genuinely nice individuals. However the positives are severly outweighed by the fact that THESE GUYS AR JERKS.

There are some good comments about rec leagues here. I asked about the orginal OP's experience because it could matter. Many times, up to JV boys you only have coaches yelling and they are doing it mostly for show. Varsity coaches may begin to "talk" to the ref with purpose and if the official has been in many situations it could help.
I say all this assuming you have the support of the assigner, someone who runs the league and a guy with a gun & badge if need be.
Adults will test an official repeatedly until they realize they can or cannot influence what the official will call.
IMO, the game should be about sportsmanship, skill and finesse. Apply whatever rules needed to maintain that and it will work at any level. Normally you can find 10 players who want to play - all others can be removed systematically or immediately. :D

I think that is harsh and I would like to assume you are talking about them being jerks on the court only. Some players get tunnel vision once they step on the court and basically lose their mind for 40 minutes.

Gotta agree with this statement. I play at my local Y on occasion in both a league and pick up games. There are a few guys I play with that are great until the ball goes up. Men's leagues are good for experience, you learn to be a strong official and be decisive, but after a time they are more of a pain than they are worth. Also, since we're on the subject, do you notice that some gyms have their own personality? For example, I play at my local Y and hate it. Everyone complains, the games get physical at times, and I doubt if I play there again. On the other hand, I go play at open gym in a town near mine, and the games are great. I've never heard anyone complain, and things are pretty clean.

Gyms With Tude
 

I have a similar deal in my area. Open gym-real crowded and competive. Nary a problem. Right across the parking lot we have a park real crowded competive and talk about a mess. i have personally seen guns pulled, twice, one guy tried to beat another guy with a tree limb. My wife says I can't play at the park with the other boys after the last gun pulling incident. So I go to the gym now......

Unfortunately, this is part of our society now. People resort to pulling a gun or starting a fight because they lose a game or someone gets the best of them on the court. I have played with and against guys who would either get the exact shot they wanted or call a foul regardless of whether they really got fouled. The game is just in a bad place right now IMO. Sure the athletes are better than ever, but the skill, pride (in defense mainly) and responsibility are lacking. The end result is the USA has the best individual players in the world, but can't win an international tournament.

I have called Men's Rec. League games for about 4-5 years now, and they are the biggest group of complainers I have EVER been associated with. Rarely do they know the rules (but they will argue to their last breath otherwise), and they almost never know the correct application/administration of those rules. However, in the years that I have called those games, I have had only one instance where I found myself in a precarious situation . . .

The man was being incredibly loud and obnoxious, but not to the point where I wasn't going to let him play. Once he started playing, he became worse, and was out of control on the court. I whistled him for 2 fouls, then my partner got him for one, then we had a PC foul. He blew up over the PC foul and started yelling at me, then he got a "T." We shot the tech, he came out, and all was "sort of" well again. He came back and played a little more, got called for his 5th foul and was done for the night. On his way out, he yells at me, and calls me a "f-ing, punk-a** referee," and tells me I am a, "sorry m-f!" Of course this is on his way out the door. I asked one of his teammates if he was planning on coming back and he said no, so I left it at that. Guess what happened . . . YEP, he comes back about 5 minutes later. I tell him he can't be in the gym any more. He stays. I tell the league administrator he can't be in the gym, and that I won't finish the game while the player is there. The player gets upset and RUNS after me, cursing and swearing. I stood where I was, not moving, but reminding him (CALMLY) that he could not be in the gym, and that he had to leave. One of his teammates gets him and tries to take him outside . . . after 5 minutes of those two fighting, and several players getting in front of me (to keep this disgruntled player from getting to me) they finally get him to the door. Game cancelled with a score of 62-59 and 2:35 on the clock. Good game too. Cops called, the player left and is now banned from the league and the property.

That is the ONLY incident I have ever had at a Men's Rec. League. EVER! It was bad, but in the dozens and dozens of games I have called for them, one bad apple cannot force me to judge the entire bunch. Most can be ornery during a game, but that is competition. They don't have to be disrespectful or discourteous, but for the most part, these people are decent everyday people.

I would say that you should run the game just like you would a HS or College game, and expect the players to adhere to the same standards. If they don't, they can leave. I ALWAYS use Rec League games to improve my mechanics and my game management. Yeah, I like the extra money, and the opportunity to get into "game shape," but I believe it is more important to use that time to improve my skills. However, if you aren't enjoying doing those games, let someone else take them, you can do other things to get in shape. Just my take.

Good story Big Dawg.

A few years ago a coach went apesh1t on me during an AAU game. I went to my bag & took out my cell phone which happens to have a video camera in it. That calmed him down quite a bit.

:)

Big Dawg, great example of using rec games to grow. It sounds like you had the mentality that it wasn't personal, but he had to go. You used the systematic approach to remove a bad apple from a game.

Thanks guys. I will admit, it was incredibly difficult to stand there and REMAIN CALM. But after the fact, I recognized, that should anything have come of it, I am the first one that will have to defend myself. Besides, it really was a GREAT game. I didn't want to let one bad apple ruin it all, and then . . . in the end he did. Just another story in the book of officiating. Can't wait for our season to start though . . .

The reasons these leagues are a waste of time is mainly because all the things you have to do in at the JH level for example are completely non-existent. I have not ever seen a Men's League were reporting area was honored, coaches were present or all officials’ required proper use of mechanics. I also have yet to see teams run an actual offense and play anything more than a man to man that looks like real basketball. Most of the time 6 guys are on one end, 4 are on the other waiting for the ball to come back. Men’s Leagues are a complete waste of time if you ask me.

Peace

I totally agree with JRut's comments,

Big Dawn, similar story happened to me but with softball about 7 years ago. When I was dabbling with what sport to officiate, which eventually brought me to basketball? I must say that we as adults when it comes to competition are the biggest babies ever. A good double play ball, second baseman bobbled the ball and threw to first, second was safe, first was out. Well it was like it was the end of the world. The guy came after me. Ready to throw fists. I was lucky enough to have had many years of self defense and he knew by my readiness. After the game he thought he would try again and proceeded to chase me with a bat. That was a scary moment, I think he caught his senses and stopped. Needless to say I said never again to do softball. Typically slow pitch softball you are a one man show and a man on his island alone. No partners to look for or to watch your back. Even when I do High school ball, it's never the kids but the parents, who think their kid is the next MJ or Sue Bird.. Not....

Thanks All
 

Thanks for all the responses. I never expected it to be this much. I read through them all and they have all been very helpful to me, in one way or another. Most of you wanted me to clarify some things on the circumstances behind me doing these games. Here they are:

1. The primary reason I do these games is to gain experience (i.e. see more live plays, make split-second decisions, apply my knowledge of the rules, etc.) and to stay in shape. Money is a very minor consideration. I get paid $22 a game, usually do 3 games a day.
   
2. Another reason I like to do these games is that I just LOVE to officiate basketball. I love the challenge and the "authority" associated with it. Plus, the gym is like 10 mins away from where I live. The assignor has expressed his appreciation multiple times for me doing these games and helping him out last minute. I'm guessing this would help me in some way in the future.
   
3. I have been doing them for about 2 months now and never have I felt personally threatened, like how bigdogrunnin or tomegun described. Not even felt any urge to ask the gym management to throw a guy out of the gym or to call the cops.
   I agree with what most people have said that most of these guys are just "jerks" on the court. Most guys are good guys off court, hence why I don't feel threatened at all.
   To give a few examples. I did a game last night and I missed a kick ball situation. A1 who lost the ball bec of the kick was all over me, saying how I missed it, etc., etc. Then B1 who kicked the ball came to me and said that he did kick it. So during the first timeout, I approched A1 and told him that I did miss that call. You know what he said to me? In a calm way: "Oh don't worry about it. It was just the adrenaline bec of the game. And sorry I was complaining too much."
   Then another guy missed a rebound and screamed his lungs out asking for a foul. I let it go since the scream wasn't particularly directed to me and he just came into the game (i.e. no prior incident). The next time up the floor, after the opposing team hit a shot, he screamed "3 SECONDS" in my face. I had no choice but to T him up. After the game, he approached me and my partner in a very calm manner and asked for clarification on why it wasn't 3 seconds and why I T'd him up. He really wanted to know and learn.
   I think most of the players in these leagues are like this. They get too caught up in the game that they act like jerks during the game, but after that, they are reasonable and harmless people. Of course, there are a few bad apples that don't fit this mold.
   However, this in no way excuses their behavior on the court. They should just play the game and don't worry about the officials. The way most of them act, everything is the officials' fault. It's pretty funny that I haven't seen any incident re team getting on each other. Most of the time they are pretty friendly with each other. It's like the refs are both team's opponents. Haha.
   
4. I've mentioned what I think the advantages are to me of doing these games in points 1 and 2. Unfortunately, I do agree that as far as mechanics are concerned, these don't help at all. Most of the partners I get are nonchalant, they don't hustle, don't want to do switches, seems like they don't want to be there and they only are there for the money. Most of these teams don't even have jersey numbers so I don't get to practice proper mechanics in reporting fouls. Plus, it's running time so we always get pressured to avoid unnecessary delays. Also, the logistics of the court are terrible. The table and benches are on the baseline, hence there is no place to get a good angle when I'm the lead. Also, there is only about 1 foot of space on each sideline. So sometimes, I just miss calls that I can't see because I can't get a proper angle. Of course, they expect us to see everything.

One thing I picked up from your comments are: (1) the incessant whining is not really a reflection of my officiating skills but more of the characteristics of these leagues; (2) I should apply the rules like it were a HS game: no unnecessary contact, move your feet on defense, etc.

Good question! I actually asked the same question a while ago and got similiar responses from the folks here ("Don't Do Them").

I guess I can update everyone a bit as well. While I have generally avoided doing adult rec games the past year, I've actually been called to do a few recently.

I decided to do them because some of the guys calling were really good to me during last year's high school season so I figured I do some games for them to help out.

I also took a small internal assessment of myself and realized my attitude (due to the earlier experiences) toward the adult leagues was not the best. If you come in expecting crap to happen...well crap might actually happen.

So I adjusted my attitude slightly. I was determined to officiate the best that I could. If the guys happened to whine, then I would have to deal with it appropriately and not take things too personally and become "T" happy.

So when I did the adult league last week, while there were still some whiners, things went relatively smoothly. I have a couple of adult league games tonight as well so let's see how things go.

I know my limits and if I do ref adult leagues, I don't book myself up too much and spread the games out. I think that will help me mentally deal with the crap that will inevitably come up. Perhaps something to keep in mind for anyone who is still doing adult leagues.

dont take it the wrong way -- when I say most are jerks its in relation to them being a player and me being an official.

As to how they are personally the remaining 6 days 23hours a week I cannot comment on as I am not around them.

however in my time i only worked for one league and you notice the same faces from season to season and most of the players that were jerks -- were repeated jerks. This to me says a lot about them as a person as well -- if after seeing me 20, 30, 40 times hasn't taught them the line then what other conclusion can I draw?

Most players in these leagues are repeat offenders. On a personal note in these leagues I might give out 1 maybe 2 techs a game on average. in 4 years of HS ball i have given about 5 techs total. So yes I have no patience for whining, it doesn't accomplish anything. When I play I dont argue, I dont complain I just do what I can and the only people's face I even get into are my teammates if they are being stupid.

Adult League + Quick Trigger = The Smartest Thing You Can Do (TSTYCD) sounds like Tasty CD.

I have to agree with Tom, the games can be good for an official. In some instances these games can make a HS game become much easier. I have found that you have to get better angles to see thru the play. Games will be much faster, more contact and more lip from the guys. For me I think doing Mens leagues has helped my game tremendously.

Tom: When are you coming back to the DC area to visit?

I guess it depends on your experience. Where I live these leagues are absolute garbage. The only times working what could be classified as a Men’s League are leagues that have current NBA players and current college players. Everyone does not get those types of games and when you do get those opportunities, you are likely working in the CBA or a potential NBA official. But the local YMCA league with some has-beens and never-was players, you are only looking for trouble. And it is not secret the guys that work these leagues are more than likely officials that will do just about anything for the money.

Peace

So, I guess I'll follow up on this as I had a couple of Intramural games at a local university last night. I was running a little late (left work later than I wanted and had to wade through traffic).

I got to the gym just at game time and jumped into the first game a couple of minutes late. The first game was a "Graduate Students Division" game. It was a battle of some older but huge guys (several guys 6'3" or taller) and some younger and smaller guys (which did have one guy about 6'2" or 6'3")

For an intramural game and of what I remembered of the league (I hadn't done it in a couple of seasons), the game was pretty good. The older guys, with their height, dominated early. However, the young guys, with their young legs battled back. It was pretty an even battle deep into the second half.

However, several incidents reminded me why I didn't ref adult leagues too much:

At one point in the 2nd half, the big guy from the young team and another big guy from the old team started jawwing. I tried to seperate them, alas being 5'10" with a couple of 6 footers standing over me, I did little to prevent them from talking to each other. :rolleyes: I ended up just giving them "double T's" and life went on. Maybe the guys just needed to get their anger out of the system.

Then toward the end of the game, the young team just unraveled. They started jawwing about me missing an out of bounds call (possibly). Then, when the point guard of the young team drove to the hoop, he was hit pretty hard. Both my partner and I got the foul. However, the guard being the great guy he was, decided to swing an elbow back at the defender.

We issued a "T" to the point guard and ejected him. Then finally, after all the commotion, my partner correctly called out of bounds on one of the players from the younger team. THe player proceeded to boot the ball the length of the court after the call. My partner (with about 15 seconds left) simply just called the game at that point.

Fortunately for us, the 2nd game (with undergrads) went much more smoothly.

That was my evening. Do I regret taking the game? Nah, it was fine. But I do know why I try to avoid taking too many of these games. Knuckleheads do certainly take the fun out of basketball.

Call me twisted, but I love that kind of crap. I would have loved to be in that game. The only thing I would do different is I probably wouldn't get between adults. I would say something to persuade them to stop and then I would T them up.

You gotta be selective in what Rec Leg you do. I - for all reasons mentioned here - have done some. Some are better than others.

Choose wisely or bad habbits can potentially overcome game experiences your getting.