Call it or not?
 

Middle school girls AAU. A situation came up that made me think about the violation for swinging the elbows.

A4 had a habit of grabbing the rebound (or a loose ball) with both hands and then extending her elbows while taking a good solid swing into nothing. Oddly enough, she was only doing this when no one was around. Partner and I discussed it and figured we'd call it if she did it in traffic. She did it later in traffic, and he called it (okay, I was peeking, and my whistle blew, too.)

Anyway, in hind sight, I'm thinking we probably should have jumped on it early while no one was around rather than wait for her to come close to busting someone else in the chops.

What say you?

Middlke school girls? Warn her first....and explain to her why you are warning her.

AAU Middlke schools girls?

Tell her coach to make her knock it off. Explain nothing. T him up when he tells you they aint playing chess out there.

Warn . . . explain the violation, move on. Next time, call the violation. What would you call if she makes contact with another player while swinging her elbows??

Adam! You're still around! Good to see you posting again. I agree. Tell the girl or the coach what she's doing wrong and then take care of it if they don't. Don't forget that you can call the elbow swinging a violation as well as a common and technical foul, but I'm sure you thought of that.

Oops, I didn't really read the other posts before I jumped in. Obviously you're already discussing this being a violation. Sorry, I'm getting ready for parent-teacher conferences and multi-tasking.

I'm with Jurassic on this one. Have a subtle discussion with her that nobody else knows you are having (you know how insecure and easily embarrassed those middle-schoolers can be) and move on.

Wait a minute!! "Big Dog Runnin' "?!?! Can a person join the forum and just declare himself/herself one of the Big Dogs? What are this person's qualifications to be a Big Dog?

On the upside, at least now when somebody cries about being mistreated by the forum's big dogs, we'll know who they're complaining about.

Hey Big Dog, I'm just kidding around. Welcome to the forum.

If the player had the ball (in this case she does), it would be a player control foul.

Thanks Chuck. I didn't realize, until you pointed it out, that my name does indeed imply that I "might" be a "Big Dog." I actually came up with the name while I was coaching Cross Country and Track several years ago, and just continued to use after I left coaching. However, I see now that it does indeed have a NEW application. Thanks . . .

I also had quite a laugh at your response. Thank you for that as well.

As for the swinging elbows AND making contact with an opposing player, would a Technical Foul or Intentional Foul be warranted here? Does it depend on circumstances or the severity of the foul?

You can't have a technical foul called for <b>any</b> live-ball contact foul. Technical fouls, by definition, are non-contact unsporting fouls or dead-ball contact fouls.

Contact with a thrown elbow could be called either a player-control foul, an intentional personal foul or a flagrant personal foul.

Thank you.

It doesn't depend on the severity of the act. A technical foul would have to occur during a dead ball in this situation. It could be an intentional or flagrant foul. It just depends how you viewed the act of the player. See 4-19 (p. 32).

Edit: Or see JR, since he clearly beat me! ;)

Jurassic Ref
 

Teaching moment here for me. So if we have two knuckleheads going at it while the ball is live we have a flagrant personal foul.

Can't find last years rulebook to look this up. What signal would I use for a flagrant personal foul ? What are the penaltys for personal flagrant fouls ?

Arms crossed is the signal for both intentional and flagerant fouls. I've only called 2 flagerant fouls in 4 years. Lots of Intentional ones though. Who wants to do all the paperwork with the state association for the ejections.:D

Um, no. There is <b>no</b> approved signal for a flagrant foul, whether it's a personal or technical flagrant foul. The one most commonly used is the ol' umpire's heave-ho signal. The crossed-arms signal is for intentional fouls <b>only</b>.

As per post above, there is no official signal for a flagrant foul. You either verbalize it or you can give the <i>beisbol</i> umpire's heave-ho signal.
The penalty is always disqualification. If it's part of a double flagrant foul, no foul shots for either flagrant foul and go to the POI.

I thought about talking to the girl or the coach, but didn't see an opportunity. I should have probably made one and addressed it early. As it was, we didn't make the call until late in the third quarter. For whatever reason, my partner thought the rule only applies when there are opponents in the immediate vicinity.

As the new guy in town working with a ref who's been doing this for close to 40 years, I figured it wasn't the time to make waves or start a reputation as a "rules guy."

As always, it was a good situation to help me figure out how I'll deal with it at the varsity level.

aw