Penalty for Delay
 

Officials warn Team A for delay for interfering with the ball after a goal. Later, Team A delays by not having the court ready to play following a time-out. Officials should assess a Team Technical for the second instance of delay. However, the officials (for whatever reason that I understand should be prevented) do not realize it is the second delay by Team A. From reading Rule 10-1, I assume that the officials must assess the technical at the time the second infraction occurs. Do I assume correctly, or can the penalty be assessed when it is discovered? If officials must assess the penalty at the time of the infraction, when does the time to assess the penalty expire?

My opinion: Once the ball has become live, the game is not being delayed. It's then too late to assess the penalty for delay.

YaBut, what if the delays are reported to the table properly, and at the half someone tells you not to forget that Team A has a delay for X and a second delay for Y so another delay for one of those things is a T?

Question never answered in the 5 years I've been a ref...
 

1st quarter: B2 reaches across the plane during throw-in and

• a) fouls A1 and intentional foul is called

• b) touches the ball and technical foul is called.

So far everything is good. Later in the same game....

• 3rd quarter: B2 reaches across the plane but neither touches the ball nor A1.

Would this be the first warning for delay or would situations a and/or b above also have counted towards the warning limit?

I agree with Bob. (I've been doing that a lot recently...)

It's not a correctable error situation, so those rules and time limits wouldn't apply.

What if a coach calls you a cheatin' SOB, and, for whatever reason, you decide to think about it for a play or two. Then, after play goes up and down the court, you decide the comment was false and it really was unsportsmanlike. Do you issue the T then?

The play, and the time to make the call is past, so we move on.

BNR, in both (a) and (b) part of the penalty is a warning for delay.

Assuming that the water is cleaned up at that point, I agree. If you put the ball in play, but then get to the front court and find water still on the court, could you stop the game, direct the team to clean it up and also issue the delay warning (or T)?

And, the T in (b) is charged to the player.

My bad Bob, I knew that. I had a brain freeze.

Why is this not a Correctable Error. 2-10-1

Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in:
a. Failure to award a merited free throw.

You've called the second delay which should have resulted in a merited free throw that you did not award. As long as the error is caught during the first dead ball before the clock has properly started, shouldn't this be a correctable error.

If not, why not.

If you call the T after the ball is live, and go back and issue a T, then the official is delaying the game. Let it go and keep the game going. Our primary responsilbity is to make sure the game flows.

Then why do we have Correctable Errors in the first place?

Mr. Jenkins:

And, the T in (b) is charged to the player.

Please check whether the technical for delay is charged to the player. I believe it's a Team technical, and the individual does not get charged. I don't have my book with me, and we had this happen in the first half of a game. We charged the player with a technical, but told the coaches we would check the rule book at half time. We checked, and if I remember correctly, we removed the T from the individual player.

If the player touches the ball the "T" is charged to the player, if the "T" is for delay of game it is charged as a Team Technical.

I think the issue is the time limit to make the ruling. The Correctable error rule addresses limitations on the time limits to assess the penalties or correct an improperly executed penalty.

The original situation doesn't specify that the officials did or did not report the delay.

I would agree this is not correctable if the officials did not report the delay to the table. (In essence, a no call)

However, if the officials reported the second delay, this should be a correctable error situation.

If you believe it is not, please explain.

I don't think it's correctable b/c there are no FTs awarded for a warning. If the official had issued the T, then got distracted somehow and forgot to give the FTs, then that's correctable. But the foul was never called. So no FTs were merited.

Very interesting.

Just seems wrong to me. You've issued the second warning which should result in free throws and you catch it in time.

I'm sorry but I'm going to 2-10-1: I have an error in a rule being inadvertently set aside that results in the failure to award a merited free throw. I'm shooting free throws.

Failure to call a foul or violation that should be called is not a correctable error. It is either called at the time of the infraction or it is not called.

Correctable errors all deal with the penalty portion of a called foul (or counting a basket as the incorrect number of points on a try).

Apples and Oranges.

We have already established that we called and reported the second warning. In your example there is no call.

By rule the second warning results in a technical foul. A rule which was inadvertently set aside and results in free throws.

What if a dribbler gets bumped (hard and what should have been an obvious foul) but you call travelling instead. You give the ball to the other team. As the other team is dribbling the ball, their coach requests a timeout for a correctable error. He questions the possible foul that occured just prior to the travel. You agree that you should have called a foul. Would you even entertain that as a possible correctable error? It's not all that different from what you're suggesting.

Now we've got Apples and Steak:)

The official called a warning for delay. It's the second. That's a T with FT's which was inadvertently set aside. That, by rule, is an error made by an official which should be correctable.

You make some good points. But, what about a player who enters who is not in the book? If the scorer adds the player, and the ball becomes live, it's too late to penalize.

Or, what about team members wearing illegal uniforms (e.g., with a manufacturer's logo on the jersey)? This can only be penalized as the player enters the game. Once the player is in, it's too late (unless the player leaves and reenters), even though the rule continues to be violated.

Now you make some good points. But, what about a request for an excess time-out which is "Penalized when discovered" (10-7 Penalty).

I'm just thinking of the situation when you report a foul to the table (you don't realize it's the seventh). You resume play, then within the time limits you find out it was the seventh foul, so you shoot the one and one.

Similarly, you report the delay (you don't realize it's the second). You resume play, then within the time limits you find out it was the second delay. I think you shoot the FTs.

HMMMM. I'm not buying this. Penalized when discovered is a phrase that seems to apply here, and with a few of the other sitch's in this thread.

I gotta keep a rule book with me when I read this forum. My head hurts.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing but I think here is the comparison Kajun is trying to put across:

• common foul committed (7th team foul) but scorer doesn't notify officials one-and-one should be shot. Failure to award merited free throws. Correctable error situation

• 2nd delay warning administered. Scorer doesn't notify officials that this is 2nd warning and technical foul should be shot. Is this a failure to award merited free throws?

Kajun, Would this be the concept your are trying to get across?

Oops, just saw that you already posed the same scenario. At least give me credit for reading your mind.:D

Thanks for the P.S. I thought it was my Kajun English coming out again.

You make some very good points Kajun and my even be correct (I have a suspicion that you may be...but I'm not yet convinced).

But that is only penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live after the timeout. Once the ball is live, it's too late.

In that case, the foul was called but not properly penalized.

The rules specify a foul should be called but it wasn't...not quite the same as being called and improperly penalized. There are a lot of things that the rules say should be a technical foul but we don't always call them...can we change our mind during the next possession and go back and call a T on any of them?

That's not what 10-7 Penalty says. It says "Penalized when discovered."


I see your point, but my point is that we intended to call the rules infraction as evidenced by the warning. The only reason we didn't issue the T was because we didn't realize it was the second warning. We didn't consciously make a decision not to issue the T. We didn't issue it because the scorer didn't inform us that the warning was the second. Just like the 7th foul that we didn't shoot on.

And I have to keep going back to the definition of a correctable error, "Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in: a) Failure to award a merited free throw." which provides guidance in this situation.

I see a difference in this situation and not calling a common foul, technical foul or any other rule violations, because we actually made the call (the warning) but applied the rule incorrectly and now have an opportunity to correct it.

Just to stick my two cents in - I wonder if the difference is:
a)Failure to award a merited free throw, which is <B>not the same as</B>:
a)Failure to call a technical foul, which results in free throw(s)

Subtle difference. The free throw is not merited until after the T is called. In the case of the 2 shots vs. 1-and-1, the foul had been called, but the proper free throws had not been administered. If you don't call the foul, you can't go back and correct the free throws, because the foul hadn't been called. A missing step in the process, so to speak.

I think the rules committee picked very specific examples as to what can be corrected, just to avoid the possibility of officials using the "correctable error" reason to go back and fix whatever they want. Once an illegal sub comes in the game, you can't correct that. If there's a timeout request that results in an inadvertant whistle, you can't correct that as well. I can see your point, but it doesn't quite fit into the specific listed correctable errors.

Good points, Cajun but I believe the merited f. throws would occur after you place your hands together for the T instead of when we were notified of a 2nd warning. If we expect coaches and players to realize that it is a technical for any second offense without consulting with the scorer, then isn't it logical to expect the official to know that he should have administered a T. Failing to administer a T is not the same as setting aside a merited f. throw. IMO.

Reread the rule and list the specific listed correctable errors and you'll find it fits there perfectly.

You are all giving me the reasons I am wrong about 2-10-1 without showing me anything authoritative about the rule.

Let me restate,

2-10-1 "...Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in: a. Failure to award a merited free throw.

It seems pretty simple to me.

Was a rule inadvertently set aside? YES

Was there failure to award a merited free throw? Yes.

Correctable Error.

Not only do I believe it is within the letter of the rule, I also believe it is within the spirit of the rule. What was the FED's intention? Two free throws on the second delay.

Here is the biggest reason that it should be corrected. We screwed it up and have an oppurtunity to correct it. To not correct it, gives an advantage to the offending team. If you're going to give the second warning the FED wants it to result in two FTs. If we ignore the fact that we can correct this error by rule we are cheating the non-offending team.

First, Kajun, you are right about the T for the excessive time-out. This can be penalized until the officials leave the floor at the end of the game and end their jurisdiction.

Second, I believe that Chuck Elias gave the correct ruling on the second warning snafu. No foul was called, so no FTs are merited.

My comments to Kajun's proposed correctable error argument are in RED.

Agree.<i></i>

Yes, if the ball becomes live before you whistle for a delay, but the delay was called. Would you call a backcourt violation and then not penalize it?

Two delays results in a T. Two delays were called. Shoot the free throws.

Not that I would enjoy having to do it.

Read 3.4B and you'll buy it.

Right. So are you. That's because there isn't anything that covers this. If there were, the thread (well, the relevant part, anyway) would be two posts long -- the Q and the A.

There *are* specific examples where a T should be called, but it's "too late." I don't know of any examples (including the excess TO example) where the T can be assessed after the fact. That doesn't mean this can't be the first.

OK then, at the end of the day, here's what happens:

We both called a violation for delay, we both inadvertently set aside the rule by issuing a second warning instead of issuing the T and the two shots.

You stuck with your rule error and got it wrong.

I corrected my rule error and goit it right.

There *are* specific examples where a T should be called, but it's "too late." I don't know of any examples (including the excess TO example) where the T can be assessed after the fact. That doesn't mean this can't be the first.[/QUOTE]

Bob,

I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying here. Team A requests a 6th T.O. with 5 minutes to play. The crew is not notified at this point that it is an excessive T.O. With 30 seconds left to play, the table calls you over and then alerts you that it was Team A's 6th T.O.

Are you saying that it is too late to penalize?

Mulk

Bob,

I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying here. Team A requests a 6th T.O. with 5 minutes to play. The crew is not notified at this point that it is an excessive T.O. With 30 seconds left to play, the table calls you over and then alerts you that it was Team A's 6th T.O.

Are you saying that it is too late to penalize?

Mulk[/QUOTE]

I'm saying that I don't know of / recall any case play or interp that says to issue a T in this situation. So, I would not (but I could be wrong).

I am aware that the rule says "penalized when discovered." I just don't think that means what it says.

Yep. I bought it! The book is definitive on that situation.

I'm still not clear on the original question. Did I miss something?

No. Some think the "error" can be corrected anytime (until the officials leave the floor). Some think it can be corrected in the "correctable error" timeframe. Some think it can be corrected until the ball becomes live.

Absent any definitive ruling by the FED, I think that's where we'll have to leave it.

And I agreed with Bob's thinking because it seemed the most logical for the situation- imo.

But, JR, you do disagree with what Bob says here, right?

Yeah, I think that "penalized when discovered" means exactly what it says.

The FED uses other language if it wants to set some other time limits- i.e......
- R10-1-6--penalized if discovered while being violated
- R10-2-2--penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live.

They don't set any limits with the phrase "penalized when discovered" though.

Interestingly, that phrase / clause was added without comment inb the 2004-2005 book. No interps or case plays, that I can find.

I'm not aware of any either.