Men's vs. Women's
 

I was working JUCO jamoborees over the weekend for the second year. I don't have to make this decision now, but it got me thinking about which side I want to work. I'm about 50/50 on which to do. I like the athleticism of the men, the challenge of the games, and the percieved prestige of working college men. The drawbacks I see so far are the physical play at the JUCO level (constantly watching for cheap shots and such), advancement may be more difficult (I'm about 5'11", a short guy around college officials) and it seems that there's a little more competition rather than commraderie on the men's side. As for women, the advantages are that the games seem a little more laid back, the play is less physical and closer to what I see now in HS, more of a fellowship of officials (or so it seems from what I've seen so far) and I think I could advance a little more quickly and to a higher level on the women's side. Drawbacks are that I don't want to get on in my career and wonder if I could have made it with the men and the athleticism is much better for the men. My questions for you that I want to discuss are as follows;
Do you agree with my statements of advantages and disadvantages?
Are there any other factors I should consider?
This isn't a decision I have to make in a hurry, but I've been thinking about it all weekend. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Junker, I would just say go with your heart. I will be working a couple of collegiate jamborees this weekend. However, I have made my decision I prefer Women.

I agree with your advantages and disadvantages.
If I were to choose, I would choose being on the floor with the men, even if it meant fewer games.

The camaraderie of the officials will be what you make it.

I went thought a similar decision. About 4 years ago I was working both Men's and Women's college ball. I decided to go with Men's college for one simple reason. I enjoyed it more. I do not watch Women's basketball in my private time and I attend the Big Ten Men's Tournament every year for the last 5 or 6 years because I am a big fan. So for me the decision was easy. I also do not work for the money. I would rather work what I like to do rather than go 3 hours away from my house for something I do not enjoy. Know these were my reasons; your reasons might be different. No one can tell you what you want to do. I also think the competition is harder at the Men's level and feel that I have more time to get to that level. This is completely a personal decision.

Peace

Thanks for the thoughts. I agree that it's a personal decision, but over the years I've been around the board I've developed (lord help me) respect for your opinions. I'm just kind of compiling ideas right now and someday I'll have to make a decision. Thanks.

Junker,

Keep in mind if you choose women's ball it doesn't mean you are any less of an official than if you would have picked men's ball.

Ouch !
That thought could leave a mark.

My point Junker is you are the person that is going to have to live with your decision. If you do it for reasons that are not your own, you will be the one that will have to live with that decision even if it is not working out. It sounds like you are being pulled in a direction based on the words in your OP. This is why you have to make this decision with your pros and cons and not the ones you read here.

Peace

I cannot post what I really think on here, but if you would like my private opinion, email me at [email protected]. I work womens BB and will give you a very honest (and true) forcast of your chances!

Ok, first of all. . .

Shut up.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way. . .

I agree with your ads and disads, although I will say that I agree with Mick about the comraderie. It will be what you make of it. There is a great deal of competition on the men's side and many guys stay on longer than they should just b/c they can't give it up. (And my guess is that both of those things are true on the women's side, too.)

But I have made GREAT friends at camps, even though I am, in a sense, competing with them for a future roster spot. Dan_ref and I had dinner together just last night, which was great b/c I hadn't seen him in over a year. I'm gonna spend a night in a hotel room with 4 other guys on a road trip next week. There are good relationships and comraderie out there.

Whether deserved or not, there is a prestige involved in working Men's ball. To some people, that is probably very important. If it's not that important to you, then my guess is that you'll have more chance to move up quickly on the Women's side. (Of course, you'll have to learn the crappy mechanics that they use. ;) )

The only drawback to Women's ball that you don't mention is that (IMHO) the quality of play at the D3 level is substantially lower than the level of play on the Men's side. As you move up, I'm sure the level of play is much better and maybe even closer to the level of play on the Men's side. But when you're first starting out, you are going to watch some pretty bad basketball.

One of the advantages to Women's ball that you don't mention is that the Women's game (at the D2/D3 level) is often played immediately before the Men's game. So you finish the game and get home before we've finished the first half of our game. I'm not being flippant, either. I've had Women's officials tell me that they love being home early and not having to drive home at 11 pm. If you have a family or are going to be starting one, that might be a consideration for you.

I'm a Men's official b/c I didn't know there was a choice. The president of my HS association handed me an application and told me to fill it out. So I did. It was for a men's collegiate association. I didn't even know there were other options. But whatever you choose, it's got to be b/c it's what you want. If you don't have a passion for it, you won't last. Good luck.

I don't think it was meant in a derogatory fashion, Mick. I think he's saying that officiating Women's basketball is just as important and just as much of an accomplishment as working Men's ball; even if some Men's officials might not agree with that.

How come, Kev? I'd like to hear your thoughts, but I don't want you to get in trouble, obviously. PM me? Or email me through the site? Thanks.

All right Chuck, I've been around the board for 3 years and I have to know....how tall are you? Really? :D Thanks for the opinions. I appreciate it.

In my bare feet? Or in my dreams?

I hope none of these folks is that Greek guy who was hitting on Jurrassic in another thread :eek:

That is exactly what I meant by that statement. Some men's officials look down at women's officials as second rate and being a women's official I take offense to that. I have worked very hard and attended numerous camps to climb up the college officiating ladder. The women's side can also be quite competitive to get hired, the camps I attend have anywhere from 150-175 officials in attendance. If you choose men’s or women’s basketball just be proud that you are a college basketball official, some officials never get work a varsity game let alone a NCAA D3, D2, or D1 game.

Hitting on me?:confused:

Musta missed that one.....which was probably good.:D

The moderators didn't. I searched for it but it was deleted. No evidence means it never happened. :)

Current thought seems to think this is not a choice, but that it's pre-determined. "Not that there's anything wrong with it."

Thanks, Chuck.
But, I was talking about camaraderie.

Yeah, yeah. It's so cold here that my numb fingers couldn't find the extra "a". :p

He's just a hair shorter than me!! :p

And Junker, I was in the same position about 12 years ago...I chose Women's ball mainly for the camaraderie issue...at that time, the Men's side of things out here was kind of a mess. None of the officials would travel together, none went out to dinner after games...everything was a big pi$$ing match...that's not true anymore, but at the time I wanted no part of that.

One thing I will disagree with is that Women's ball is not as physical...that may be true in some cases, but some of the most brutal ball I have reffed has been lower level college women's ball!

Which, btw, makes lower level college women's ball not the best training grounds for most other refs, imo. I wen't to quite a few games at a local college here near where I live, and I always left more confused than I was when I went in (which is really saying something!) In my first few years, I didn't understand the variations in philosophy between the different levels and how to apply advantage/disadvantage to the different styles of game. I finally quit watching college women's ball (anything not on TV), because it was so different from what I was doing that I couldn't learn much. I'm not saying not to watch it, just to realize that the styles of reffing are much, much different.

Yeah, this one....

http://www.vegalleries.com/wbopc/51bugs.jpg

If you are that concerned with what people think about you, then that is a problem all by itself. You are never going to change how people view one side or the other. I worked a tournament that happened to be associated with a Women's D1 camp. I was working games for pay next to games that were apart of the camp. I heard officials get so defensive when you I told them I did not work Women's basketball. I heard comments like, "Women's basketball is the real basketball the way Naismith wanted the game to be called." Or comments like, "We use the NBA mechanics and you are still living in the past." No matter what you say officials are very territorial about which side they work. I will say this, most the Women's officials that I know as a whole tend to be less experienced then their Men's official’s counterparts. I know female officials that worked college within their 2 and 3 years of overall officiating that have D3 experience. I have been working 10 years and I have yet to get a shot at the D3 level along with many other officials I have worked with. And the JUCO conference I work, I am by far one of the least experienced officials around. You have to be confident in your own ability and your own choice. This is why this is completely a personal choice and you cannot officiate one side or the other based on what others are thinking.

Peace

JRut,

So you were at the ABOC Camp in Elgin, IL?

Now playing first base, Bugs Bunny. Second base, Bugs Bunny. Third base, Bugs Bunny. . .Wham! A homah! WHAM! Anothah homah! WHAM! WHAM! WHAM!!!

Sorry, wrong thread. :) But it is one of my all-time favorite cartoons.

I was at the Nike Cup for two days (in July) in Schaumburg at the Sport Center. I have no idea what camp it was, I was not a camper. I did talk to campers and I also knew some of them personally and there were sites at Elgin and one other place I do not remember. I just know it was run by Patty Broderick from all accounts.

Peace

Rut,
I know a girl who might have been at that camp. She moved to Vegas 4 seasons ago and had to work at getting varsity games. She recently moved to Indianapolis because she is now in several conferences and had 70 D1 games this season the last time I talked to her.

I did not work with any campers. Everyone I worked with was getting paid and we worked 2 man for all of our games. There were officials there that were all over the country. Patty assigns officials from all over the country in several conferences.

Another reason Women's basketball is very different from Men's basketball, is the fact that the people that assign Division 1 Conferences in Women's basketball can impress basically one person and they are in. In Men's Basketball you have to impress one person per conference. The one person that I am aware of that has multiple conferences similar to the system in Women's basketball is Dale Kelley. This affects greatly who moves up and who does not.

Peace

I prefer women also.:D

As a young women's official (27 year old male, been doing DII, JUCO, NAIA for 3 years), I have to agree that the women's side in my area tends to hire referees with less experience than the men's counterparts. Although, I must emphasize that it is 100% based on their ability to officiate women's basketball. They don't care if you've been ref'ing for 3 months, 3 years, or 30 years, if you can do the job the way they ask you to do it, you will be hired. I agree with this philosophy completely. When I am ref'ing with a crew, I don't care how long they have officiated, I just want to make sure they handle their business for the entire 40 minutes we are on the court.

Of course, the lack of experience can cause an issue. There are certain situations I have never seen before that I really need to handle before I'm put into the wrong situation. I'm working on seeing as many plays as possible! :)

I chose to referee college women's basketball because the 2 other young guys in my high school association were in D-I women's. I liked their mechanics and gave it a try. Since I've been in, I have not regretted one minute of it. I am fortunate enough to live in an area with a lot of great college women's officials who are there for support and encouragement. Also, the JUCO women's basketball here in the panhandle of Florida is probably the best in the nation. There have been times where 5 of the 6 teams in the league have been ranked in the top 25 in the nation (including #1 and #3). Conference games are wars and you have to work your a$$ off. From other D-I officials, I have heard that it is as good, if not better than most of the lower level D-I games.

How do you know that? I have never known someone to be hired on anything just based on only one factor. There has to be other factors if you really really think about it. I do not know a single college official that is hired without some factors outside of their ability being a factor being considered (geography, job availability, look, experience, gender, race, recommendations).

Peace

You're right Rut, I was being slightly over dramatic with the 100% and the BOLD. The list you mentioned, definitely factor in. A better way to phrase it would be that years of experience are not a major factor, IMO.

Well it is clear that years of experience on the Women’s side do not seem to be a huge factor. I cannot disagree with that observation at all.

Peace

In the same boat!
 

I am at that cross road right now. So I know the feeling!!!!

Where would I start?
 

:confused: I've read all the comments and I also have a desire to do Colligate ball. I have a family and love being home with them, I'm a Pastor and must take care of that family as well. I'm also employed full time (all though saliried), What are some advice and/or direction can any of you give to help in my quest.

...On your knees, Rev.
Good luck with it.

Oh, grief, Rut. I mean, really. "Being able to officiate" is one phrase, but it is not really just one "factor." It includes play-calling, game management (which includes communication skills and rules knowledge, among many other "factors"), fitness/image, and many other "factors." Are you just looking to jump on something?

Mr. Annoying Spelling Guy's friend says...
 

• collegiate
  
• salaried
  
• semi-colon after "them" to separate two complete thoughts
  
• although instead of "all though"
  
• either a lowercase w, or a period
  
• change are to is
  
• move can to the location of the blue can
  
• question mark after the sentence asking a question

Edit: Does anyone know how to use the strikeout tag in a message?

<font></font> K

Cute... :p

nex time I will not be on the run and I'll check all fo that. Thanks

It looks like you are trying to jump on something. The person that I was talking to (which was not you BTW) seemed to get my point rather clearly. Then backed off and clarified their position.

For the record, officials that work college ball (especially at the D1 level) are always going to be hired for reasons outside their actual officiating on the court.

Peace