Submitting the roster before the game

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

That's kind of silly, I think. On that interpretation, anybody who ever dressed for that school is a team member. Heck, I played for the Gremlins in '68. I was suited and ready to play. I must be a team member. Put my name in the book, Coach!

Huh?

You mean to say someone who was dressed and ready to play in '68 is dressed and ready to play in tonight's game?

Talk about silly...

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Huh?

You mean to say someone who was dressed and ready to play in '68 is dressed and ready to play in tonight's game?

You're the one who said there was no time limit!!!

And if you don't like that example, how is a kid who's not even at the building yet (coming late from another activity) dressed and ready to play? Should that kid be in the book?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

You're the one who said there was no time limit!!!

Did I say THAT? Hold on, let me go check...

....OK I'm back. Nope, didn't say that. I said "Time unspecified".

And if you don't like that example, how is a kid who's not even at the building yet (coming late from another activity) dressed and ready to play? Should that kid be in the book?

errr...I hesitate to say this because I'm sure it's a trick question...but here goes...he'll be ready to play when he's in the building and sitting on the bench, will he not? The rule does not specify that he MUST be dressed and ready to play WHEN his name goes in the book. It just says he MUST be dressed and ready to play to get his name in the book for that game. It does not specify the time during or prior to the game WHEN he must be dressed and ready to play (time unspecified). And if you can't seem to wrap your arms around that concept try this: there's no penalty defined for a coach who puts a name in the book because he thinks a kid *might* be dressed and ready to play but never shows up. There's just a penalty if the coach does NOT put the kid's name in the book and plays him later.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Did I say THAT? Hold on, let me go check...

....OK I'm back. Nope, didn't say that. I said "Time unspecified".

And the difference is? "No time limit" and "no time limit specified" are pretty much equivalent in our context, aren't they?

I hesitate to say this because I'm sure it's a trick question...but here goes...he'll be ready to play when he's in the building and sitting on the bench, will he not?

Yes, of course. No dispute. (In fact, you realize, I hope, that there's no actual dispute here at all, right? You and I are going to handle this exactly the same way, regardless of whether we agree on the exact wording of the rule.)

The rule does not specify that he MUST be dressed and ready to play WHEN his name goes in the book.

But it does seem to specify that. You have to submit the roster at a certain time. And the roster has to have team members on it. If you're not dressed and eligible to become a player when the roster is submitted, how can you be a team member?

It does not specify the time during or prior to the game WHEN he must be dressed and ready to play (time unspecified).

So it could be 1968?

there's no penalty defined for a coach who puts a name in the book because he thinks a kid *might* be dressed and ready to play but never shows up.

True, but that doesn't mean it's allowed. There's no penalty for wearing earrings, but you're not allowed to play with them in.

Again, the loophole is that the rule doesn't prohibit non-team-members from being in the book. So this whole discussion is moo. (It's like a cow's opinion. It's a moo point. -- Joey Tribbiani) But if the loophole weren't there, I think we might have to say that only the players at the site could go in the book.

[JRutledge]

Chuck,

You are really concerned about this? Do what the people you work for say. If they are in the book, they can play whether they are there or not. If that is hard to understand, then ask the people you work for and see what the normal practice is where you live. I could see there being some state rule that requires some kind of eligibility. Other than that the NF does not address this in as much detail as you would like. I am going to assume that there is "no time limit" with people that are still eligible. That would exclude folks that have graduated or are not of the proper age to still play (or whatever eligibility rules that might affect who plays on a team of any kind). So if the kid is eligible to play at a particular school and they are in the book, you should let them play. Not very hard to understand for most of us that officiate basketball.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Chuck,

You are really concerned about this? Do what the people you work for say. If they are in the book, they can play whether they are there or not. If that is hard to understand, then ask the people you work for and see what the normal practice is where you live. I could see there being some state rule that requires some kind of eligibility. Other than that the NF does not address this in as much detail as you would like. I am going to assume that there is "no time limit" with people that are still eligible. That would exclude folks that have graduated or are not of the proper age to still play (or whatever eligibility rules that might affect who plays on a team of any kind). So if the kid is eligible to play at a particular school and they are in the book, you should let them play. Not very hard to understand for most of us that officiate basketball.

Peace

And even if they are not eligible (suspended from school; insufficient GPA; 5th year Senior, etc) , is it our job (or business) to make that determination and take action?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And if even there are not eligible (suspended from school; insufficient GPA; 5th year Senior, etc) , is it our job (or business) to make that determination and take action?

No, it's not. I had this very situation come up many moons ago, where a coach came up and told me a player on the other team wasn't eligible. My partner and I checked with the other coach, and he admitted the player was not eligible. So we shot the T, and went on with the game. We found out afterward from the state office that this is not under the officials' jurisdiction, but an issue between the schools and state office. There is no game penalty or inforcement in place. If one school wants to press the issue, then there could be more suspensions, or a game forfeiture, but nothing in place for the game officials to enforce.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Chuck,

You are really concerned about this?

Good grief, no, I'm not! How many times do I have to say that I'm going to handle it exactly the same way as the rest of you? Here it is one more time: I'm going to handle it exactly the same way as the rest of you!!!

I'm merely interested in how this might be handled if Bob's "loophole" weren't in place. The only question I think is mildly curious is whether a kid in a car 20 miles from the game site is a team member, given that he is neither dressed nor ready to play.

[JRutledge]

Lighten up. I am just giving you a little grief about it. It is kind a funny discussion but nothing that is serious. I thought IAABO Rules Interpreters would know the answer to this.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

And the difference is? "No time limit" and "no time limit specified" are pretty much equivalent in our context, aren't they?

Sure, they are very equivalent, but those are not my words.

I said "no time specified". As in the issue of time in any context is simply not addressed. I didn't say "no time limit specified".

True, but that doesn't mean it's allowed. There's no penalty for wearing earrings, but you're not allowed to play with them in.

errr....and you're saying WHAT, exactly, is NOT allowed in our discussion again? You're saying a coach can't write a player's name down in the book unless he's dressed & ready to play? What if he's dressed but injured? Can he write the name in the book?

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I said "no time specified". As in the issue of time in any context is simply not addressed. I didn't say "no time limit specified".

Well, then you're granting my point about players from 1968 being team members.

errr....and you're saying WHAT, exactly, is NOT allowed in our discussion again? You're saying a coach can't write a player's name down in the book unless he's dressed & ready to play?

IF (a big "if", I grant you) the rule read that ONLY team members could be written in the book, then I'm wondering if a kid in a car 20 miles from the game site could be included in the book, since he's not dressed and not eligible to become a player.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

IF (a big "if", I grant you) the rule read that ONLY team members could be written in the book, then I'm wondering if a kid in a car 20 miles from the game site could be included in the book, since he's not dressed and not eligible to become a player.

That's not a bif if. This is: IF
Anyway, I would think the Fed. purposely left the term "eligible" a little vague, so they wouldn't have to get into issues such as grades, suspensions from fighting, 20 miles away vs. "in the parking lot", what's considered "in" the lot vs. the driveway, etc., etc, ad nauseum. And in the case of grades, suspensions, and other "eligibility" issues, it's not our jurisdiction. So we don't need to rule if the names in the book are eligible, just whether they can play in the game once they stand on that X.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

IF (a big "if", I grant you) the rule read that ONLY team members could be written in the book, then I'm wondering if a kid in a car 20 miles from the game site could be included in the book, since he's not dressed and not eligible to become a player.

Since time is not addressed at all with respect to these rules I would say he's eligible whenever he arrives dressed in the gym and the coach has every right to write his name in the book before the 10 minute mark. (If the coach wants to put your name in the book because you played in '68 there's nothing to stop him btw...time is not addressed. But you'll need to explain to your assignor why your name appears in the boxscore as a player and an official, won't you?)

Further, if the coach writes him into the book there is no penalty if the kid decides he wants to go visit little Suzy or hold up a liquor store (or even both) instead of show up for the game. Why no penalty you ask? Because time is not addressed.

But you ignored my question: what if A1 is dressed and injures himself during warmups just prior to the 10 minute mark (ie not ready at the 10 minute mark). Are you saying the coach should NOT put his name in the book?

What if A1 injures himself at the 9 minute mark? Does the coach have to take A1's name out of the book & be given a T?

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

You're the one who said there was no time limit!!!

And if you don't like that example, how is a kid who's not even at the building yet (coming late from another activity) dressed and ready to play? Should that kid be in the book?

Chuck...this happens sometimes in our region.

The kid is playing a couple quarters of Junior Varsity ball, at another building, and the game is running late. He is eligible to play in the Varsity game and therefore, his name is in the book. He may not even be there when the game starts...but, he is eligible to play when he gets to the Varsity site.