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ibumgardner Thu Sep 06, 2001 12:00pm

Should "we" as fellow officials and/or labor union supporters not watch NFL games until the referees and the NFL come to an agreement? I haven't seen or heard any calls to do so by referees, though, I did hear a 10 second clip on ESPN about a semi-boycott in Philly by AFL/CIO. Just wanted to know what other referees thought of the situation.
For the record, my initial reaction was, boycott the games. Now I am kind of on the fence, in part because I feel like I may be standing alone. Am I?

mick Thu Sep 06, 2001 12:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ibumgardner
Should "we" as fellow officials and/or labor union supporters not watch NFL games until the referees and the NFL come to an agreement? I haven't seen or heard any calls to do so by referees, though, I did hear a 10 second clip on ESPN about a semi-boycott in Philly by AFL/CIO. Just wanted to know what other referees thought of the situation.
For the record, my initial reaction was, boycott the games. Now I am kind of on the fence, in part because I feel like I may be standing alone. Am I?

Watch the games at home and don't tell anyone. ;)
If you are checking the book for the ratings people. Put your time on the Discovery Channel.
Or, don't watch any TV and install a "closet fan".
mick

Brian Watson Thu Sep 06, 2001 12:35pm

If the local teamsters went on strike would you stop driving? If the carpenter union was on strike would you stop fixing things around your house?

The NFL guys are professionals. Yes, we get paid, but I do it more for fun, exercise, and comraderie than for the jack. I view it as no different than a union being on strike and me working in that same capacity around my house.

I don't think you can compae what we do to them. Unless you are an NBA, MLB, or NHL (including minor league) official, I feel no need to stop watching football.

Camron Rust Thu Sep 06, 2001 01:03pm

Not a huge NFL fan but I watch occassional...

I say who cares. I have no respect for anyone who strikes when they get paid what they do and they have a job where many people would love to have it.

Like said above, the refs are not the stars. They can be easily replaced. I'm sure there are many people that take part in putting on the game that get paid worse and get treated worse than the officials.

Strikes in well paid professions are usually a result of people exceeding there worth but wanting more money. The supply of good officials is higher than the need, so the only way they can force a raise is to make a visible stink about it and try to get the support of other unions. They don't have any substantal reason to strike other than greed.

Barry C. Morris Thu Sep 06, 2001 01:35pm

Camron,

The NFL Refs are not on strike. They are being locked out by their employer.

ibumgardner Thu Sep 06, 2001 01:50pm

We have all experienced a lack of respect while officiating? Do you not think that there is an overall lack of respect for the NFL officials? These guys have not received a pay raise in 6 years. In that same time frame, TV contracts have gone through the roof, players salaries have rocketed, and the owners are smiling all the way to the bank. We all (probably) have experienced a lack of respect while officiating in one way or the other. Now the referees have taken a stand, and have gotten locked out. Shouldn't the referees get their share (notice I didn't say fair) of the pot? Should we not stand up with them?
If I were an aspiring NFL referee, I don't think I would cross the line. Is there more that we should do for our presumably fellow NASO officials?

mick Thu Sep 06, 2001 01:59pm

Crosses
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ibumgardner
We have all experienced a lack of respect while officiating? Do you not think that there is an overall lack of respect for the NFL officials? These guys have not received a pay raise in 6 years. In that same time frame, TV contracts have gone through the roof, players salaries have rocketed, and the owners are smiling all the way to the bank. We all (probably) have experienced a lack of respect while officiating in one way or the other. Now the referees have taken a stand, and have gotten locked out. Shouldn't the referees get their share (notice I didn't say fair) of the pot? Should we not stand up with them?
If I were an aspiring NFL referee, I don't think I would cross the line. Is there more that we should do for our presumably fellow NASO officials?

ibum,
You are certainly carrying a heavy load there.
I imagine the replacement officials are closer to my ilk with respect to NASO.
mick

Brian Watson Thu Sep 06, 2001 02:54pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ibumgardner
We have all experienced a lack of respect while officiating? Do you not think that there is an overall lack of respect for the NFL officials? These guys have not received a pay raise in 6 years. In that same time frame, TV contracts have gone through the roof, players salaries have rocketed, and the owners are smiling all the way to the bank. We all (probably) have experienced a lack of respect while officiating in one way or the other. Now the referees have taken a stand, and have gotten locked out. Shouldn't the referees get their share (notice I didn't say fair) of the pot? Should we not stand up with them?
If I were an aspiring NFL referee, I don't think I would cross the line. Is there more that we should do for our presumably fellow NASO officials?

I don't know how you equate lack of respect and the money they earn. Unlike the other professional sports, the NFL made it clear their officials were not to be full-time, therefore why would they expect full-time salaries?. These guys all have other jobs, this is just a side gig for them. I don't think our game checks have increased as much as the NFL is offering in the last 6 years. 40% this year, let alone the 100% in three years the NFL is offering is probably a fair offer and more any other official is getting percentage wise. Technically it is a "lock-out", but it is not like they have a contract and the NFL is preventing them from working. There is an offer on the table and the officials refuse to sign it. I look at it this way, there are probably a lot of people who can be (in time) just as good as they are, and would do it for free or for less. Basic economic principle, the supply is greater than the demand, if they won't work for what the NFL is offering, someone else will.

Plus, I don't even want to get on the soapbox that just because the NFL is making X amount of money, they deserve a X percentage of it. They should get paid what is offered, like any other employment situaton, take it or leave it. If my boss is suddenly making 200% more would I like a raise, YES, but am I entitled to a certain amount? No. He took the risks if he wants to keep it that is his perogative.

Camron Rust Thu Sep 06, 2001 06:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry C. Morris
Camron,

The NFL Refs are not on strike. They are being locked out by their employer.

True, but it is essentially a strike. They have a very generous offer and refuse to sign it. They were being offered a 40% increase this year and a total of 100% increase by 2003. That is an outrageous increase. They refused it and the NFL has responded with a 60% immediate increase and total of 120% increase by 2003. THere is talk that this one will be refused too. (All of this by a 12 member executive committee, not by the members of the union).

They argue that they should be on par with the NBA or MLB. I believe that is a silly argument.

They work a single game a week for up to 24 games per year. They have other full time careers. An NBA ref works 3+ games per week. It probably adds up to over 100 games per season. They would not be able to maintain another career with the frequency of games and the associated travel time. The NBA refs would have much more game tape available to review. NBA officials have to be in much better shape than an NFL official.

Sorry, I don't buy any comparison to other official who work many more games/hours per week for as many weeks per year. They mention offseason obligations. The NBA has those too.

I am less familiar with MLB but I bet they work even more nights per week than do the NBA refs and for a longer season too.

If I could make $40,000/yr for a part-time/weekend job in the first year (and up after that) I would be thrilled. And they are talking about rejecting this one too.

What ever is the case, it is foolish to ask for a 300% raise as they are doing. All of this in an economy where thousands of people are getting laid off each day.

Camron

[Edited by Camron Rust on Sep 6th, 2001 at 06:27 PM]

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Sep 06, 2001 09:21pm

I officiate real football (soccer, just a little joke guys), but here is what I posted on Aug. 29th, in the Football Forum on the NFL lockout:


I would like to add my two cents to the contract dispute between the NFLRA and the NFL. I come from a union background. My father was a member of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters for over fifty years, and his two brothers were members of the United Steel Workers for over forty years, and I am a member of the American Federations of Teachers. I will be the first one to admit that unions are not perfect but the standard of living and the working conditions that exist in this country today are the product of unions representing the workers of America. While one does not think of the UBC, USW, and the AFT in the same breath as the NFLRA, all of them exist to make sure that its members get a fair shake from their employers. Having said that let me get to the central theme of my post.

I officiate four sports: basketball, baseball, softball, and soccer, and basketball is my serious sport and I officiate the other three sports for fun. If the NBA or WNBA officials were ever to go on strike, and I were offered a chance to officiate in place of a striker I would turn it down.

Why? Have you ever been in an officiating postion where you took a stand on principle and refused to officiate because of that position because to officiate would not be in the best interest of the profession? You were willing to lose money to take a stand on principles. But at the same time many of your brother/sisters were more than willing to take those games because of the money.

I say a pox on your family to any official who works as a scab. You have forsaken your brothers/sisters just so you could say you officiated in the NFL. We are supposed to
conduct ourselves in a professional and ethical manner. It is neither professional nor is it ethical conduct to take another person's job under such circumstances.

BktBallRef Thu Sep 06, 2001 09:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ibumgardner
Shouldn't the referees get their share (notice I didn't say fair) of the pot?
Do you think all of the actual full-time employees who work for the NFL got a 400% pay increase when the last television deal was signed? Did they even get a 100% increase? I bet not a one of them got a 40% increase.

These guys have a deal on the table. From what I've read, they're not getting any closer. I'm no union lawyer but it seems like they're asking for an awful lot. I can tell you this. If they screw around, they'll be sitting home on Sunday afternoon for the rest of their lives.

Stop watching football because of a labor dispute with the officials union? I don't think so. I don't watch Sunday football to watch the officials. I watch it to watch the players.

Good luck to each and every one of them.

Dan_ref Thu Sep 06, 2001 09:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I say a pox on your family to any official who works as a scab. You have forsaken your brothers/sisters just so you could say you officiated in the NFL. We are supposed to
conduct ourselves in a professional and ethical manner. It is neither professional nor is it ethical conduct to take another person's job under such circumstances.

OK, even though I disagree with what you say, you had me
until this last paragraph. You can't use professionalism
or ethics to argue someone out of taking a lucrative
job doing something he loves. Even worse, you can't
threaten someone's family (I know "a pox on" is hardly
a threat, but where I come from people have been beaten
to death over this stupid union loyalty BS) because he
is willing to take a job *you* are not willing to do at the
prevailing wage. This is nothing but simple free
market economics, as long as there are people willing to do the work at the offered wage then the offered wage is
"fair", by definition. If it wasn't then no one would
take the job, would they?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Sep 07, 2001 08:30am

Dan lighten up on the "pox" word, it was literary license.

But my orginal thought stands: anybody that worked those last round of preseason games and those that will work this weekends games are scabs and are guilty of unethical and unprofessional conduct.

Let me use a personal example to put this in perspective. About five years ago during the MichiganHSAA girls' basketball season, I was assaulted by the husband of the timer just outside the dressing room after a jr. H.S. DH. The timer had been doing a poor job. She was not starting or stopping the clock because she was too busy chatting with people around here and refused to sound warning buzzers at the appropriate times during timeouts. Since it was a jr. H.S. game there was no school administrator at the game.

Needless to say the school was upset because I pressed charges against the timer's husband. Late during the MichiganHSAA boys' season, I had a varsity game at the same school. Both games were assigned by a local officials association in Michigan that I belonged to at the time.

Two weeks before the game, the school's A.D. contacted me by telephone to tell me that he had replaced me for the varsity game. When I asked when I would see my game fee check he told me that they were not going to pay me even though I had a signed contract. The LOA' assigner had replaced me at the school's request. He did not have the intestinal fortitude to tell the A.D. to take a short walk off a short pier when the appropriate thing for him to do was to have me swap games with another official.

The LOA's stand was the school had the right to demand that I be taken off of the varsity game without compensation and that the LOA did not want to upset the school by demanding that I be compensated for the game. In fact there were at least ten officials that contacted the assigner to tell him that they were available to officate the game.

I am happy to say that the type of officials described above do not exist in most of the country. In many areas of the country officials would have told the school pay the official or you will not have any officials officiate your games. I did get paid for the game though, it took a phone call from the MichiganHSAA and the threat of a lawsuit for the school to cough up the money.

The actions of the officials and LOA above are the actions of the officials would officiate the NFL games in place of members of the NFLRA.

Dan_ref Fri Sep 07, 2001 09:14am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Dan lighten up on the "pox" word, it was literary license.


OK Mark, I'm light & after I get rid of these 10 pounds
I'll be even lighter (I'll be right back, I need to open
another bag of chips)....:p

I'm sorry you had this happen to you and I'm glad you stuck
to your guns & got your money. We all have stories of
getting stabbed in the back by our "brother" officials.
Some get it worse than others but let's face it, this is a
cut throat business. But this is sorta off the point. You
have the right to belong to a union. You have the right to
job actions. You have the right to refuse to cross picket
lines. But you do not have the right to tell me, or anyone
else, to obey the rules of *your* club, because it serves
*your* purpose. Obviosuly you'll disagree so let's just
leave it at that. (I hope we're still friends!)

Brian Watson Fri Sep 07, 2001 09:16am

Mark,

You are comparing apples to oranges on many levels.

1st - Unions do and have protected workers for many years. But let's be honest, their true intent was to protect the poor souls in the mills and factories who truly risked their lives on a daily basis for little pay. Unions helped protect my family members in the steel mills, but I find it a long stretch ( and a bit insulting) to apply that same principle to any professional official. With this new offer entry level officials will be getting paid close to $2400 for three and a half hours worth of work. I think only the very top lawyers get that hourly wage (670+ per hour). I do not think they are being taken advantage of or abused andto hide behind the union and what unions stand for is flat wrong in my opionion. It is just as bad as Pat Ewing giving us that take about "we need lots of money because we spend lots of money". I think unions have far outgrown their need in pro sports. They have free agency, they have million dollar average salaries, time to bring them back in line with the rest of the world in my opinion.

And to call "replacement" officials scabs is a bit much I think. There is no contract, so they are not keeping anyone out of a job. As one will find with basic economics, they are wiling to work for the offered wage, while the current ones are not. This is called perfect elasticity of supply. Either you take it or leave it, and the current group has chosen to leave it. Revel in our market economy actually working.

2nd - Why are you mad at other officials trying to fill an opening in HS ball? It is not their fault the spot was open, they were just tryign to fill it. I am sure some had greedy intent, but others might have been open and wanted to fill that day. Your beef was and should have been with the school and assignor. The other officials should not be looked down upon in this case, they are not the ones who acted unethically the school and assignor were the one out of line.

BTW - Are you going to enlighten us as to why you got popped by the timers hubby?

ChuckElias Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:19am

Part-time vs. Full-time
 
A lot has been made of the fact that NFL refs are part-time refs, unlike officials in the other major sports leagues. NFL officials work only one day a week, for a three-hour period, etc.

While I'm not going to argue that they work 40 hours per week, I think it's misleading to suggest that they're getting paid $670 per hour. Just think about your own HS game on Friday night. What does it last? An hour and 15 minutes? An hour and a half? But is that the only time you've invested? Obviously not.

You have to:

1) Drive up to 2 hours to the game site.
2) Arrive at the game site one to one-and-a-half hours before game time.
3) Spend that hour and a half in preparation.
4) Officiate for another hour and a half.
5) Shower, do a post game review, and dress.
6) Drive home.

NFL officials have to:

1) Fly up to 5 hours to the game site.
2) Arrive in the game city 24 hours before game time.
3) Spend those 24 hours in preparation; watching game film, reviewing position responsibilities, etc.
4) Get to the game site 2 hours or so prior to kickoff; inspect team equipment, do pre-game conference, meet with league officials and replay officials (who are not union members, I believe).
5) THEN officiate for 3 hours.
6) Shower, do a post game review with a league official, dress.
7) Drive to the airport for (up to) a 5 hour flight.
8) Drive home.

And that does not include mid-week conference calls or rules meetings or whatever else.

Now, this is still a part-time proposition, true. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that it just fits into their weekend plans.

Having said all that, if I were an NFL official I'd take the league's deal. It seems more than fair to me. I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

Chuck

stripes Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:31am

Quote:

I would like to add my two cents to the contract dispute between the NFLRA and the NFL. I come from a union background. My father was a member of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters for over fifty years, and his two brothers were members of the United Steel Workers for over forty years, and I am a member of the American Federations of Teachers. I will be the first one to admit that unions are not perfect but the standard of living and the working conditions that exist in this country today are the product of unions representing the workers of America. While one does not think of the UBC, USW, and the AFT in the same breath as the NFLRA, all of them exist to make sure that its members get a fair shake from their employers. Having said that let me get to the central theme of my post.
I disagree with part of this. I believe that at one time unions helped the average worker and raised his standard of living and bettered his work environment. Those days have past. Today unions are out to get business owners. Their defininition of "a fair shake" would put many business owners out of business and would raise the cost of goods and services to the point that they would be unaffordable to the average working family. The day of the union is past. Unions exist now to put money into union organizer's and leader's pockets and to harass legitimate business owners.

Quote:

I officiate four sports: basketball, baseball, softball, and soccer, and basketball is my serious sport and I officiate the other three sports for fun. If the NBA or WNBA officials were ever to go on strike, and I were offered a chance to officiate in place of a striker I would turn it down.

Why? Have you ever been in an officiating postion where you took a stand on principle and refused to officiate because of that position because to officiate would not be in the best interest of the profession? You were willing to lose money to take a stand on principles. But at the same time many of your brother/sisters were more than willing to take those games because of the money.
How is refusing a 60% raise in pay not in the best interest of the profession? I do not know a single person who wouldn't want a 60% raise this year and a 120% raise in three. How are these men different than those willing to take the games for $2K/game? It is absolutely about taking games for the money offered. The money standard is just different. The NFL has laid out a package that is very attractive and VERY FAIR to the officials. I am amazed and astounded at the greed being displayed by the officials and by the gaul of claiming that it is a matter of principle. In my mind the integrity of the officials as a whole is sufferring from the officials union's unwillingness to negotiate in good faith.

Quote:

I say a pox on your family to any official who works as a scab. You have forsaken your brothers/sisters just so you could say you officiated in the NFL. We are supposed to conduct ourselves in a professional and ethical manner. It is neither professional nor is it ethical conduct to take another person's job under such circumstances.
Maybe it wasn't about reffing in the NFL, maybe they needed the money and $2k was too much to pass up. Maybe it was the biggest reffing payday they had ever had and they felt liked it was fair compensation for the service they provided.

Professionalism and ethics are critically important and the NFL referee's union needs to learn a thing or two about them. It is not ethical nor is it professional to hold a business hostage for unreasonable demands. It is unethical and unprofessional to refuse work under fair and generous conditions provided by your employer. It is unethical and unprofessional to expect full time pay for part time work.

The replacement guys aren't scabs, they are opportunists. One set of refs won't work under good conditions and another will, that is all there is to it. If the NFL wasn't being fair or upright with the refs, then I could see having a problem with replacements, but not when the NFL has been very fair.

$40K is a lot more than many people make in their real job, how pompous are these guys to demand more than what has been offered. I know they haven't had a pay raise in 6 years, but that is the deal they signed. As it is a 60% raise is still 10% a year for each of the 6 years (and a 10% raise is nothing to scoff at--I'd take that every year fot the next 6 ;) ). It is time for these guys to get off their collective butts and sign the deal. If they refuse it, I say good luck to the guys in stripes this weekend and for many to come.

Brian Watson Fri Sep 07, 2001 11:00am

Re: Part-time vs. Full-time
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
A lot has been made of the fact that NFL refs are part-time refs, unlike officials in the other major sports leagues. NFL officials work only one day a week, for a three-hour period, etc.

While I'm not going to argue that they work 40 hours per week, I think it's misleading to suggest that they're getting paid $670 per hour. Just think about your own HS game on Friday night. What does it last? An hour and 15 minutes? An hour and a half? But is that the only time you've invested? Obviously not.

You have to:

1) Drive up to 2 hours to the game site.
2) Arrive at the game site one to one-and-a-half hours before game time.
3) Spend that hour and a half in preparation.
4) Officiate for another hour and a half.
5) Shower, do a post game review, and dress.
6) Drive home.

NFL officials have to:

1) Fly up to 5 hours to the game site.
2) Arrive in the game city 24 hours before game time.
3) Spend those 24 hours in preparation; watching game film, reviewing position responsibilities, etc.
4) Get to the game site 2 hours or so prior to kickoff; inspect team equipment, do pre-game conference, meet with league officials and replay officials (who are not union members, I believe).
5) THEN officiate for 3 hours.
6) Shower, do a post game review with a league official, dress.
7) Drive to the airport for (up to) a 5 hour flight.
8) Drive home.

And that does not include mid-week conference calls or rules meetings or whatever else.

Now, this is still a part-time proposition, true. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that it just fits into their weekend plans.

Having said all that, if I were an NFL official I'd take the league's deal. It seems more than fair to me. I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

Chuck

Most professionals do not get paid for their preparation time or training time. It is just the cost of doing their business. Same with us, we don't get paid to travel (Yes, i know some places pay mileage, but you kow what I mean), go to meetings, camps, etc. It is just a cost of what we do for the love of the game.

I think important part is we agree they should stop whinning and get back on the field where they belong.


bigwhistle Fri Sep 07, 2001 11:42am

I thought this was the basketball area. Would this conversation be better suited for the football area, or even the legal or morality page, if they exist?

mick Fri Sep 07, 2001 11:48am

Aw, c'mon .
 
Quote:

Originally posted by bigwhistle
I thought this was the basketball area. Would this conversation be better suited for the football area, or even the legal or morality page, if they exist?
The sophisticated person, I hear, knows a lot about one thing and a little about a lot of things.

williebfree Fri Sep 07, 2001 11:52am

BigWhistle has called
 
... Just before I reviewed Bigwhistle's post, I thought to myself, "Some things do not mix, Politics and religion."
Then I started thinking about the passion of officiating.
As you know, some compare it to a religous thing. "Jesus, Can't you EVER get a call right?!" SO, maybe this thread does belong here, in the officials' forum.....! :D

Brad Fri Sep 07, 2001 12:56pm

Ladies and Gentlemen: Please keep your disparaging remarks to yourselves. I have not elected to delete any posts, but a few were borderline.

Remember that this forum is not for bashing other officials. Also, please keep in mind that NFL officials do visit this forum as well as other officiating websites.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated, so avoid comments that are derogatory, even if that person is not a participant on this forum (i.e. "greedy", "pompous", etc.)

Finally, if anyone is interested in the work and effort put in by these officials, I encourage you to read the <A HREF="http://www.officiating.com/index.cgi?category=football&page=edhochuli">Interv iew with Ed Hoculi</A> (as well as <A HREF="http://www.officiating.com/index.cgi?category=football&page=edhochuli2">Part 2</A>, <A HREF="http://www.officiating.com/index.cgi?category=football&page=edhochuli3">Part 3</A>, and <A HREF="http://www.officiating.com/index.cgi?category=football&page=edhochuli4">Part 4</A>).

These guys put in a ton of hours during the season and during the off-season, in addition to working full-time jobs, and supporting their families. I think that until we have walked a mile in their shoes, we should reserve our judgment.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Sep 07, 2001 04:53pm

Lets face it, whether one officiates at the amateur level or the professional level, sports officiating is a really a profession that we like to think is an avocation.

But in either case a sports official must conduct himself in a professional and ethical manner. Taking assignments that would normally go to officials who are being locked out or on strike is unprofessional and unethical. There is no rational that an official can use to justify taking the assignment.

The opportunity to be seen, the chance to make a huge game fee, or a once in a life time opportunity to officiate at a level that one would normally not officiate are just excuses for not acting in a professional and ethical manner. The are not reasons.

I do not officiate football and do not think whether the NFLRA contract requests are out of line. The point is professional and ethical conduct by all officials.

One either conducts himself according to his professions ethical and professional cannons of ethics or he does not. There is no middle ground.

As far as whether we should boycott games officiated by scabs (and that is just what they are): sure why not. It will be easy for me because I do not live that close to an NFL city, and I am sure that they are other sports and television that I will be able to watch instead of NFL games.

As far as the timer's husband. He was upset that I was instructing his wife in how to do her job. The best part was that when he attacked me, he did it from behind just as I was walking into the coaches office that doubled as our dressing room. I was able to roll to one side while he was still on top of me and grab the telephone receiver and whacked him on the nose. I did not break it but it did not look good, and I also broke his glasses. The whack with the telephone receiver got his attention and he broke off the attack. The worst part that the Monroe, Michigan, City Prosecutor, dropped the charges against him against my wishes because the husband "promised" to take an anger management class. He signed off on the agreement in such a manner that if the husband did not take the class he could not be recharged.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Sep 07, 2001 04:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Brad
Finally, if anyone is interested in the work and effort put in by these officials, I encourage you to read the <A HREF="http://www.officiating.com/index.cgi?category=football&page=edhochuli">Interv iew with Ed Hoculi</A> (as well as <A HREF="http://www.officiating.com/index.cgi?category=football&page=edhochuli2">Part 2</A>, <A HREF="http://www.officiating.com/index.cgi?category=football&page=edhochuli3">Part 3</A>, and <A HREF="http://www.officiating.com/index.cgi?category=football&page=edhochuli4">Part 4</A>).

These guys put in a ton of hours during the season and during the off-season, in addition to working full-time jobs, and supporting their families. I think that until we have walked a mile in their shoes, we should reserve our judgment.


Brad, I could not have said it better.

ChuckElias Fri Sep 07, 2001 06:48pm

Respectful dissent
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Lets face it, whether one officiates at the amateur level or the professional level, sports officiating is a really a profession that we like to think is an avocation.

Taking assignments that would normally go to officials who are being locked out or on strike is unprofessional and unethical. There is no rational[e] that an official can use to justify taking the assignment.

No offense, Mark, but at least two out of three of the above statements are outright false. I think you're allowing emotion to tinge your judgment.

First, sports officiating in general is not a profession. There are plenty of parents, teenagers, and even coaches who officiate all sorts of games for no fee. They do it simply b/c either: a) they weren't smart enough to say "Oh, I can't make it that day"; or b) there is literally no one else to do it.

Even for many of us who frequent this board, officiating is not a profession. We may aspire to that level, but we're not there yet. Yes, we get paid and we are expected to act professionally, but we're not truly professionals, any more than a man who holds the stick in an airplane for 5 minutes is a pilot.

Second, what exactly is unethical about performing a service that someone else is unwilling to do? The fact that the service is normally done by a guy in a union doesn't seem to me to make it unethical. This is arguable, I guess; I can't make the case that you are clearly wrong about it and I'm willing to hear a logical argument for your position. But on first blush, there doesn't seem to be any moral reason to avoid performing the service. I think if you hadn't spent so much time personally involved in union matters, this might not seem as big a big deal to you.

Third, of course there are plenty of rationales for an official to use in giving a reason for taking one of those unfilled NFL positions. You might not like any of them. But there are millions of reasons. And I'm not talking about "My pet rabbit Harvey told me to", either. You and I don't get to decide what's a valid reason for a third party, simply b/c there's a union job at stake.

You may be right that football officials should stick together. But not b/c of the statements above.

Very respectfully,

Chuck

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Sep 07, 2001 08:26pm

I am sorry to disagree with you Chuck but sports officiating is a profession.

According to the Third Edition of the New World Dictionary of American English the definition of profession is as follows: "3a) a vocation or occupation requiring advanced education and training, and involving involving intellectual skills such as medicine, law, theology, engineering, teaching, etc." And the definition of professional from the same dictionary is: "adj. 1) of, engaged in, or worthy of the high standards of a profession......6) being such in the manner of practicing a profession..... n. 1) a person practicing a profession..."

As an enigneer I can tell you that sports officials can closely identify with the legal profession. And whether one is an engineer or a lawyer or a sports official (amateur sports or professional sports) we are subject to the standards of ethical and professional conduct.

As I have stated before the officials who replace NFLRA officials this weekend are not meeting the standards of ethical and professional conduct.

On a final note, it was brought to my attention in the Football Forum, that one of the NFLRA officials who are being locked out was a scab during the MLB umpires' strikes in the 1970's. And I cannot help wonder what he is thinking now as he watches scabs take his place.

Oz Referee Fri Sep 07, 2001 09:07pm

On a lighter note...
 
Well for us in Australia this really isn't an issue - since we have basically no televsion access to the NFL.

And besides, those guys are wimps! Wearing all that padding, lycra pants and helemts! Maybe you should boycott the NFL and watch some of the football that is played in Australia - you can chose from Rugby League, Rugby Union or Australian Football (Aussie Rules). :)

Geez...I'm sure that's going to open a can of worms.

ChuckElias Sat Sep 08, 2001 01:33pm

Professionalism
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I am sorry to disagree with you Chuck but sports officiating is a profession.

Mark, you're always welcome to disagree, but in this case you'd still be wrong. :) Sports officiating, in and of itself (which seems to be what you're saying) is not a profession; even according to the definitions that you provide below. Let's look at them.

According to the Third Edition of the New World Dictionary of American English the definition of profession is as follows: "3a) a vocation or occupation requiring advanced education and training, and involving involving intellectual skills such as medicine, law, theology, engineering, teaching, etc."

Sports officiating doesn't fit this definition b/c of the very first phrase: "a vocation or occupation". Sports officiating is neither a vocation or an occupation for hundreds of people who officiate. As I said in my previous posts, many people who officiate do so, simply b/c they're the only parent willing to do it. I officiated softball while I was in college and I promise you, it was neither my vocation nor my occupation by any stretch of the imagination.

Next definition:

"adj. 1) of, engaged in, or worthy of the high standards of a profession......6) being such in the manner of practicing a profession.....

I don't think this definition will support your claim either, Mark. As I've pointed out above, many officials are not "engaged in" officiating as a profession, and I've personally worked with several officials are not "worthy of the high standards" of professional officials. And since it's clear that many officials do not practice it as a profession, definition 6 doesn't apply either.

n. 1) a person practicing a profession..."

This clearly doesn't apply either, b/c of the large number of officials who do it literally for nothing, as I mentioned above.

As I have stated before the officials who replace NFLRA officials this weekend are not meeting the standards of ethical and professional conduct.


You've stated it several times now, but you offer no reasons. I asked a pretty clear question in my last post, but I have yet to see anybody make a real attempt at answering it. What exactly is the moral rule that prohibits a person from performing a service that another person has chosen not to perfom? What makes "scabs" unethical?

I'm not trying to split hairs here. I'm just trying to show that while I understand your passion about the issue, your statement of the facts is not really precise. Sports officiating in itself, as practiced by hundreds of parents, teens or coaches, is not a profession.

That is a COMPLETLY different question from whether or not paid officials at the HS and college levels should act AS IF THEY WERE professionals. Maybe they should. I'm just trying to be as clear as possible about what we're really talking about.

Chuck

Brad Sat Sep 08, 2001 07:50pm

Hey Chuck... Until the IRS stops defining officiating as a vocation/profession (read: doesn't make me pay taxes on my officiating income), I'll have to agree with Mark! :)

ChuckElias Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:17am

Quote:

Originally posted by Brad
Hey Chuck... Until the IRS stops defining officiating as a vocation/profession (read: doesn't make me pay taxes on my officiating income), I'll have to agree with Mark! :)
Brad, I realize from the smiley that you're joking a bit, but I think I've made my point. Officiating is an avocation that some of us take very seriously. For those of us that take it seriously, we try our best to act like professionals, despite the fact that we obviously are not. That's all I was trying to get across.

Chuck

Brad Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:32am

John Milstead has a great article related to what is being discussed here in today's update: <A HREF="http://www.officiating.com/index.cgi?category=football&page=jm_getsomeone">We Can Always Get Someone</A>

I think that the point that Mark was trying to make is echoed in John's article: That we, as officials, often times do not stick together as we should.

There is a lot of comaraderie in officiating, however, far too often officials are willing to stab each other in the back.

But, you're right Chuck -- I was joking in one sense... Until I can afford to support my family based on my officiating income, it is not my "profession" necessarily.


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