Goaltend??
 

Kid shoots layup, defender blocks shot on the way up, pins it between his hand and the backboard for a second, then lets it go...Goaltend or no??? Thanks in advance

You answered your own question. You can't have goaltending if the ball is touched on the way <b>up</b>. Goaltending is touching a shot that has a chance to go in on the way <b>down</b>. Note that includes after the ball has hit the backboard too.

Thanks
 

Its what I thought, but wasn't sure about the pinning of the ball to the board.

JR has it right on. Madness may be thinking of the NBA when it comes to pinning or the backboard. By the way...think goaltending is one of the toughest calls in the game. So good for you for trying to get a clear understanding.

I agree on all 3 counts. GT and BI happen so quickly that it can be tough to be sure of what you just saw. I also personally think that it can be very tough to judge whether the ball is in the cylinder or not on those close BI calls. GT is a little easier, but there's always that one where the shot is in the air forever and the guy swats it away and it feels like it should be a GT but you're not sure if it started coming down yet.

Physics. If it's more than half way to the basket, it's probably on the way down.

Exactly my point, Jim. Feels like GT. It's probably GT. But are we sure that it has started down? That's a very tough judgment, IMHO.

That's not necessarily true, especially if the ball is headed towards the backboard first.

Actually, that's not really true. It would make sense logically, but in reality the physics are slightly different. There are many shots where after the shot is released, the speed of the ball slows down through the air, so that by the time it is at the apex and gravity takes over, it's moving slower than when it left the hand. This means the angle of the ball flight coming down is steeper than going up, which means the ball hits the apex somewhere around 2/3 of the way to the end, not just 1/2 way. This is espcially true on longer shots, maybe not as much on shorter shots. Think of the fly ball in baseball - if you watch the flight of the ball you'll see it at it's highest point much closer to the outfielder than just the halfway point.

I guess the point of my ramblings is don't rely on looking for the halfway point to determine goaltending. You still need to watch the ball flight to see if it's on the way down.

Many shots? How about all shots? When is the ball NOT slowing down as it moves "through the air?" I'm assuming your talking about the horizontal vector.

Ok, in the very strictest sense, all shots slow down as they move through the air. But I was thinking in the case of a ball traveling a shorter distance, but at a similar rate of speed, the difference in speed is not as noticable, so perhaps the trajectory looks fairly even. Think of the hard-hit line drive in baseball, for example. Or a shot that has a high arc (a player close to the basket trying to get it over a taller defender) might have an even-looking arc.

My point was to not assume all shots are at on their way down at the halfway point, so we still need to actually watch the ball.

I know. I was just being sassy. Perky. Feeling a little frisky since having a nice weekend. Actually have a little sense of humor. Don't burst my bubble. Jack...

And the weight of the ball can vary from 20 to 22 ounces too. Does that mean that the heavier ball will slow down quicker and the angle of the ball flight will be more too, Mr. Science?

Retreats make you sassy, perky and frisky?

Can I go to the next one? I haven't felt sassy, perky and frisky for the longest time.

Jim, however, is the very epi-tome of sassy, frisky and perky.

Yep. You can move to the head of the class, Mr. Smartazz.

Btw, here's my picture:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...cience_guy.jpg
Pretty frisky and perky-looking, wouldn't you say?

Woddy, no one wants you to be sassy, perky or frisky. The crotchety, curmudgeonly and growl-ly is bad enough. I hope everyone will conspire to keep all "retreat" information away from you!

Let's examine the various shot trajectories. Bank shots aside, can we agree that if a shot is blocked before it has reached the halfway point, it is not goaltending?

Can we also assume that long shots, with their flattened trajectories, do not usually get blocked on the way down.

That would leave close-in shots, where the majority of flight paths are a simple parabolic arch. These are the shots that are typically goal-tended and I would suggest that they are on the way down (or off target) when they are blocked.

Bank shots (especially line drives) can be different, and this principle will not help.

I would still suggest that this rule of thumb is accurate for the majority of shots where goaltending might be called.

Nope, could be a tall guy shooting the ball down. Happens on short jump-hooks. The only pertinent criteria to be used is whether the ball was on the way down on a try or tap.

Ok, I'm not a science guy, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. And while I was there, I studied the trajectory of various balls...(oh, man, I have a feeling I better stop right now).

Anyway, what I was trying to say was I have to watch the flight of the ball, and when the defensive player touched it, to determine goaltending. If I start trying to factor in other items, such as if the defender is more than halfway between the offensive player and the basket, or if the defender's arm was halfway even if the defender wasn't, or whether I should consider the difference between a short-range vs. mid-range jumper, or...it's just too much for me to process in that short time. So, if I see the ball on it's way down when it's touched by the defense, it's a goaltending violation. If I try to include other items I might get myself in trouble if I try to explain the reasoning for my call to the coach or my assignor.

Agreed. I would suggest that if someone is throwing it down, it's pretty obvious that the ball is on the way down.

I don't think this is the type of shot Chuck was referring to.

That's right. Tall guys throwing the ball downward is not Chuck's area! :eek:

Nope. FTs can be goaltended right out of the shooter's hand!