End of blowout antics
 

Had a game last night which was a 40+ point blowout. Losing team started to get physical at the end of the game. We called EVERYTHING but to no avail.

Question is this: B1 ran at and tried to deliberately push A1. My partner told me this after the game and we debated on what to call. I believe a T would be the answer since no contract was made while the ball was live.

Comments?

He tried to push him but completely missed him and made no contact?

Nothing. If he's that inept, he doesn't earn a T. Just tell him to knock it off.

Can you give more detail?

Well if he had pushed him...flagrant and gone in my book.

She actually, A1 was frustrated and apparently wanted to take out her frustration on another player.

If it was deliberate, a warning then if actions persisted a T?

It depends. If you felt the game was starting to get out of control and you needed to reel it back in, maybe a T would be good. Or maybe you go tell B's coach that you'd like a sub for B1 (if the coach is reasonable). I would have had to be there.

Contact----> either an intentional or flagrant personal or technical foul depending on whether the ball was live or not.

No contact----> technical foul for an un unsporting act.

You should never allow a player to get away with an act like that. A warning is the same as just letting 'em skate imo. And....if you warn one player for doing something like that, then you had better be prepared to warn </b>every</b> player in that game for similar acts. You gotta be consistent. I'll guarantee you though that if you're warning everybody, you're gonna have something additional to a push occurring sometime....like a retaliation of some kind.

Nip it, nip it in the bud!

Warnings And ????
 

How effective are warnings ? In my short experience in the officiating world I would say other than the 3 seconds in the key warning, most warnings end up having to be further addressed.

Also where in the rulebook is the "coach you need to sub out this player ?" mechanic. Player acting the fool deal with it. I know , I know preventative officiating but is my thinking off in that I don't care if they act stupid-I address it according to the rulebook. Really if the coach doesn't know or can't see a player is out of control the next 3 quick tweets will help him come to that conclusion....

I like the nip in the bud and nip it early thinking....

Blowouts are hard. The team getting blown out can eventually begin to feel that they have nothing more to lose and don't care any more. It's good that you and your partner were aware of the sitch and were calling it tight. As for the attempted push, this is an obvious escalation and, I think, must be handled. Nothing good will come of you letting 'em skate, as JR put it. One, or more, of three things could very easily happen if you don't call the T:

• B1 will soon do something worse
• B2 will see that you didn't whack B1 and do something similar, or worse
• A1, or A2, will see that you didn't handle it, and decide to "handle it" for you

It sounds like you got out of the situation with no harm. Congrats. I think that's the best you can hope for in a 40 point blowout.

I have a related question for the brain trust: At what point would you consider forfeiting a blowout that had gotten, or was getting, out of control?

I agree that you need to nip things in the bud early on, but I find that talking to players helps. Since the player did not make contact, I can't see calling a T here. I'd grab the player and tell them I understand why he's frustrated, no one likes to lose, but you can lose in a sportsmanlike manner. I'd probably try to use some humor and definitely go with a smile on my face at this point. It seems to work for me in most cases like this, but with management, what works for one doesn't always work for others.

Wait.

A1 runs at B1 & then pushes her?

And you want to warn A1?

That's an immediate flagrant.

Dan,
She was unsuccessful in making contact. For me to call the attempt unsporting, it would have to have been REALLY, REALLY bad and obvious what she was doing. I think I'd talk to her, a captain, or a coach to try to get her calmed down or on the bench.

Blow-out, out of control, losers headhunting despite whistles, A1 runs at B1 & attempts to push B1 but misses.

A1's getting tossed. We've already progressed to REALLY, REALLY bad and obvious. When A1 rushes B1 we're no longer refereeing a basketball game.

btw..take a good look at the fighting rule.

I agree that this player is not trying to be a basketball player, but are you sure you could sell intent to the coach or your assignor. This situation makes me think of the classic coaches line (I think it was Jimmy V) about "can you T me up for what I'm thinking, I think you suck". Tossing a player for this might be opening a can of worms you don't want to open. Trust me in saying that I enforce sportsmanship as much as anyone, but I would be more prone to try to manage this situation without an ejection.

Dan,
Do you have a rules book handy to post the part about fighting you're referencing? I'm at work and have my football gear with me, but not my basketball stuff. I'd like to see where you're coming from.

An ejection was discussed, but the T would have been my action. Although I didn't see the attempted push, my partner described it as deliberate, intentional, away from the ball (doesn't really matter), and not in any way a basketball motion.

Have to see it to really know what you would do, but that is my description of the play.

errr...yes I'm very sure. Not that your question is relevant, but I would be far more concerned having to explain letting A1 off with a warning in this play. Trust me in saying any assignor that has an issue with an ejection in this sitch is probably not worth taking games from.

I'm warning you for blow-outs, I only have bad excperience from blow-outs.

I played two years ago in a cup. We won with 30 or 40 points. The other team had one player who consistently through out the game held, grabbed, pushed and acted unsportsmanlike in many manners. When he took one of our players at a rebound, and simply threw him out of the way. A minute later he was out of the game, he ran into a screen, the screener moved slightly, he fell over his hip into another players elbow (the elbow wasn't intentional though, not that it makes it less unsportsmanlike though).

THIS is what you get when you don't control the blow outs. We were fed up with this player, the officials didn't care, so we simply made life easier by taking him out of the game. I'm not proud of it, but as a player, I understand it. As a ref I think it was terrible by the officials not making sure to restrain this guy.

Control in blow-outs mean evrything no control=big trouble

Flagrant Foul 4-19-4

A flagrant foul may be personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as striking, kicking, and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar, or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

Fighting 4-18

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or alive. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1...An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of weather contact is made.
ART. 2...An attempt to instigate a fight by commiting an unsporting act toward an opponent that cause an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

The player demonstrated her intent for everybody to see. And I hate to say it, but if players are doing this in your game...you've got a wide open can of worms already.

I agree, but if the officials had to discuss how to handle it after the game, it doesn't sound as though it were that blatant. Luckily I haven't had any extreme ugliness like this in a game (I'm knocking on my desk with both hands). My point in discussing this is that I would be wary to throw a player out of a game for what I think they are trying to do. I'm an official, not a mind reader. If it is that obvious, yeah the player needs to go, but as with a lot of situations, you have to be there to see it. Thanks for posting the rule Euby, I did remember, somewhat, the non-contact part, but wanted to read it word for word.

Selling intent to a coach is a non-issue. Worrying about selling <b>anything</b> to a coach aamof is a non-issue and something that an official should never, ever be concerned with. Worrying about what a coach thinks of a call should never be a part of officiating.

Assignors should be able to trust their official's judgement. I don't think that there's really any "sell" involved there either.

Then the other option is a "T" with no ejection. It's always a judgement call anyway, and a "T" should get the message across to the player that that type of crap isn't needed in the game. Simply saying "please don't do that" doesn't get the message across the same way imo, if you get a message across at all.

Actually, the Jimmy V line was, "I think you stink."

I was working a state championship game last year and the game was already decided when one of the seniors for the losing team started looking to get more physical on one of the senior (headed for D1) players. Not that any of that mattered, but it was part of the game management. Anyway, the player started pushing more than what had gone on in the game to this point. I called it giving the player their 4th foul. The next trip down the floor they set up defensively and gave a high forearm to the cutter. I called the 5th foul and got the troublesome player out of the game. Coach for the team said he was just getting ready to pull the player and thanked me for taking care of it. A T wasn't needed or warranted in this situation, although further escalation would have.

Something that I learned at camp was go to the coach and tell the coach that this player is ruining the game and needs to come out. If the coach is unwilling to help, then if you think the actions warrant a T, then give it to them. A non-contact T especially a non-verbal unsportsmanlike T is hard for an assignor to defend.

FWIW

I disagree with the people who say warnings are never effective, but in the OP, I think it's too late for a warning. If you thing the player can calm down and finish the game in an appropriate manner, an intentional might be a good call. But if the player is really getting out of control, or if there are more players on the edge, and unsportsmanlike T if no contact would be a more forceful statement. There's definitely a huge amount of judgment needed, and I think it pays to have plenty of experience either from your own games, or from watching others'.

IMO, send a message and toss him for flagrant tech foul. You could rule it a fight. Either way you can't allow the players to make a joke out of the game. If you pass on this there will proably some reaction to it. If there wasn't consider yourself lucky. Referee dead ball situations are essences to your job. Actions ignore or gone unaddress will only manifest into uncontrollable episodes.