Player control/Blocking foul?
 

Pretty new at this, but this situation has been on my mind for awhile so I'll pose it to you vets:

To make it simple, let's say Team B is in a zone defense, 2-1-2, 1-2-2, etc. A1 with the ball is at the elbow defended by B1. B2 is in defensive position just under the glass, same side of lane. A1 gives B1 an excellent shot fake causing B1 to jump in the air to attempt to block the faked shot. B2 also taking A1's fake of a shot, turns and faces the glass to watch for a possible rebound. A1 drives past B1, so you can forget about him because he's still in the air. A1 goes in for a layup and essentially climbs up over B2's back to score a goal.

Now, if the contact is severe enough, would it be a player control foul or a blocking foul? In trying to understand Legal Guarding Position I've kinda read into the definition that a defender has to "either actively defend or get out of the way". So, if B2 turns his back to an approaching offensive player with the ball, is it fair? sporting? for the offensive player to go through B2? I'm thinking 'yes' because B2 is not in LGP, (he's not actively defending and he is 'in the way'), but it's these type collisions that get the parents, fans, coaches of Team B going nuts because A caused the contact. And, I'm not saying A1 barrels into him with intent to clobber him, A1 is going to the goal for a score. I think this is probably more a situation I see at lower levels where you have the 1 good player who has good skills and the big lug is under the hoop a couple of heartbeats behind the others.

What say you?

I also am new but my take...
 

Is that B2 was initially in a legal guarding position. He is entitled to a spot on the floor. He does not need to be facing his opponent. The contact was initiated by the offensive player. I would have a player control foul.

When B2 had two feet on the floor and was facing A1, he established a legal guarding position. To maintain that position, B2 does not need to remain facing A1. He does not have to be stationary. He does not have to remain on the floor. Once B2 establishes that LGP, any contact on the torso is a foul on A1 unless B2 is moving toward A1 at the time of the contact.

Foul on A1. You can't run over an opponent just because he has his back to you.

Even if B2 NEVER had legal guarding position, it would still be a player control foul.

B2 was stationary and is entitled to that spot. LGP essentially allows the defender to be in motion (laterally or obliquely away) at the time of contact. B2 wasn't in motion and hadn't been in motion and, thus, didn't need LGP.

Exactly. LGP just gives the defender some additional rights. Those additional rights aren't needed here because B2 has a right to maintain his spot.

You could say that B2 wasn't guarding so LGP doesn't apply. Every player has a right to his or her spot on the floor and the air above it, all the way to the ceiling. PC foul.

I think if most of us see this play live and not in writing we call it a blocking foul.

Not me!! It's true that a lot of refs have trouble with B/C and tend to bail with an easier blocking call, but that doesn't make it the right call. Whoever is behind is almost always at fault, just like in driving. It's really very simple.

I think if we had 100 guys in a room and showed this play on video it maybe split down the middle 50-50 block/charge!

Why? :confused:

You wouldn't allow somebody to push an opponent from behind during rebounding action to get a put-back. Why would you allow a player to push somebody from behind for the initial shot? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Like any block/charge it is tough to comment when we actually don't see the play! If I see the paly I may indeed call it a Charge!

Well, there's your problem right there. You're working with a bunch of good ol' boys. If you are using current up to date refs, there'll be a least a few women, and the group over all will be more likely to call the play correctly.

Rainmaker: That is funny, since I work women's ball I am usually working with one or more female officials. I really have a hard problem with a big "lug" standing under the hoop and giving the foul to the offense (NF it is still by rule a charge). He is not playing defense under the hoop and where is the offensive player supposed to go?

The offensive player is supposed to go someplace where there isn't another person standing! There's nothing anywhere in the rule book that gives the shooter the right to run up an opponent's back. I sincerely hope you are just yanking some chains, but it doesn't matter. Someone else can take this battle on. I'm going away for the weekend to relax a little and enjoy some beautiful coastal scenery. I hope you enjoy your Jr. Hi basketball season!

You are telling me that there aren't any other officials out there that pass on charges when the defender is right under the basket? Why does everyone need to get personal on this site when someone disagrees with someone else’s "opinion?" By the way I need a partner for my Jr. High game on Saturday, are you open to work with me?

There are officials who do this, of course. By rule, they are wrong (except under some circumstances in NCAAW and NBA). Almost all officials (including me) ignore some rules, of course.

On the OP, I'd probably have a no-call, depending, of course, on the contact.

I agree Rain! Another reason we miss the offensive/block call is that most officials center his/her attention on the offensive player and do not expand his/her vision to include the defensive players. If we all would take a "trail mentality" on the floor (not looking at just A1-B1) and look at the plays that may be coming our way, we would rarely miss these calls!

No. In real life, most officials would pass (assuming the contact by the shooter is not severe). By rule, it's a player control foul. But you said, it would be a block. Of all the options available to us, the one thing that it isn't, is a block. JMO.

And, by the way, many (if not most) officials outside the WNBA/NBA/NCAAW don't really understand the "under the basket" rule.

By rule? So you are telling me that men's college officials will call an offensive when a player is directly under the basket? ::coughcoughcoughchokechokechoke::

In the womens college game (and by the way the BEST officials come from this side) if a player is positioned under the basket, it is a no call or a block. This is a non position.

Maybe because some tend to view a push in the back on a rebound differently than this particular play, even more so if A1 runs into B1 as he's dunking the ball.

This is not totally correct. If the dribbler comes from the baseline on a drive to the basket and the defense is under the hoop it is then a foul on the offense and other situation it would be a block. It is never a "no call" if there is a train wreck in women's basketball.

Disagree. I think that most officials actually know the rules and would get it right.

I was under the assumption we were talking coming from in front of the basket. Sorry for the ommission.

By rule, in the men's game, that would still be a player control foul. Would they call it? Many do not.

But, as you said before, the one thing that it wouldn't be is a block.

I'll answer that one...

The offense is suppose to pull up for a short jumper or go to the side. Hmmm, sounds like the defender IS playing defense...forcing the shooter to take a path different than desired (and a slightly more difficult shot).

Agree. Not a block unless B1 moves in a way to make it a block.

And that movement would be <b>towards</b> the opponent or into their path without giving time/distance usually...

Standing still? I really can't think of a situation where you could call a block.

If you are "refereeing the defense" and you see that the defensive player was knocked out of his spot on the floor.....easy call....player control foul.

Timing is an issue for me here. If the player turned his back and then it was a turn, bang situation, I might see it as a block. If player was already stationary with back to player driving its definately Player control.

Why?:confused: There's no rules prerequisite that the player has to be stationary that I know of. They can't be moving towards the dribbler/shooter. And both the NCAA and NFHS rules say that the defender can legally turn or duck to protect themselves from imminent contact-- NCAA rule 4-33-6(g) and NFHS rule 4-23-3(g).

Yea I agree. That's why timing is the issue for me. If the defender turns at the last moment not necessarily to protect themself but the movement takes tehm into the path of the offensive player just as they are passing. Simultaneously getting to the same spot I suppose you could say. I MAY have a Block. Once again unless I am there to see the play I can't say for sure. Stationary defender as in the OP I got a PC.

Again, rule-wise, you've got me confused a little on this one too.

Once the defender has established a legal guarding position, he can then move laterally into the path of the dribbler and he also doesn't have to give time/distance. The onus for any contact would lie with the dribbler in this case. If the subsequent contact is on the torso of the defender, I've got a block every time.

Thoughts?

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You keep saying that, but it isn't right. Why would you call a block on someone who is standing there and just got mowed down? I can't figure out how in the world could you see this as a block.