T or no T ???
 

Boys JV game...kid has been crying the whole game about getting fouled practically everytime to the basket. Middle of the 3rd quarter kid goes in, misses layup, turns to me and says when are you going to toot the horn ref???? Perfect spot for a technical or not worth it there??? What do you think??

For the record, I t'd him up right there, and it felt great, but I want to make sure you guys felt it merited it. Thanks

Well... for me, if you had warned him and told him you'd had enough by stop signing him...you have no choice.

By not warning him, you set up the possible situation to have to give the coach one as well. But I wasn't there and I don't know the type of tone or the body language that was used.

Then again, you answered his question, didn't you? ;)

In a JV game...if you warned him...I would have T'd.

MidMadness,
Your game. Your call.
Looked okay from U.P. here.
mick

This is one of those situations that justifies the big bucks we get. :) You need to decided how to manage the situation.

Personally, if the kid has been "crying the whole game," why are you waiting until the 3rd quarter to address it? I'm not saying you should have called a T earlier, but there may have been a way to get him to "stop crying" way before this (two examples are going through his coach or going through his captain).

Usually, we can nip situations like this early in the game without a T. JMO.

Z

This is the heart of the matter for me. Why wait until the third Q? I think this needs to be addressed at the first occurance. To quote Barney Fife, "Nip it in the bud!"

Don't let kids become an issue because you ignore them. Address problems and make them go away.

Great answer from Z.

Usually a kid that is a problem can be figured out early in the game. I am not sure I would have allowed this kid that much leeway until the 3rd quarter. I have no problem with the T at this time. It just makes me wonder if this kid was not complaining a lot during the 1st 2 quarters and this behavior. If this had been addressed earlier in the game when there were signs of this complaining (if there were signs), then you might not have had to T this kid. I have no problem with the T for what the kid said. It is a JV game and that kid should be worrying about trying to get better so he will one day play the varsity. Officiating should not be is focus. Whether we like it or not, when you give a T it can bring a greater focus on what we do and how we reacted to this behavior and previous behaviors during the course of the game.

Peace

All I want to know is why it took so long to T him up. If he's whining the whole game you should have whacked him in the 2nd quarter IF NOT the 1st.

Just curious, MidMadness, not criticizing, or even suggesting, but was there contact on all of these whines? Did you ever tell him "Incidental contact, no foul"?

While you are under no obligation to do this, sometimes this can help prevent all the whining (sometimes not). On the JV level, this might be the first time the kid has been exposed to HS contact, and may be used to chippy fouls being called at the Y.

I don't think what he said in this situation deserved a "T", I would have just let it alone at this point of the game. What I do have a real problem with is that you said it felt great. You feel great when you give a kid in a JV game a "T"? A "T" is just another call like a block/charge or a travel, did you feel great when you called traveling during this game also?

What difference does it make if he felt good about this call? Do you not ever feel good about getting a block/charge call right?

Are you saying we should never T players in the 3rd quarter? I thought you said that a T was just another call? If it is what you feel why all the "qualifications" in your response?

Peace

If you haven't called three seconds all game are you going to call it in the last 2 minutes of the game, if you didn't take care of this kid in the first half I don't think what the kid said warranted a "T" at that point in the game. I got the feeling that he felt "GREAT" to "T" this kid up, not like a "great call" on a block/charge.

I had communicated with him a couple times about not needing him help and said "nothing there" a couple times. The kid was having a bad game and wanted to blame it on me. Thats why it felt good as he was being a lil s**t all game. By the way guys I appreciate the input.

This was going to be my exact response. Handle your "bidness" early on in the game... If you let a kid cry for 3 quarters that is your fault.

Address it early on with a warning -- then whack!!!

At the JV level I would let the coach know that this player is being a pain in my A$$ and to take care of him.

Post-game analysis grid:

Did the T make the game better? If yes, then it was right. go back through and see what made it the right thing at that point.

If no, try to figure out why. Perhaps your emotions were out of control? Perhaps you should have given it earlier? Perhaps you need to work on a more effective way to "talk kids down"? Perhaps you need to "read" the kids more perceptively?

If it's a weakness in seeing the game situation realistically, attend some games as a spectator and then ask questions of the refs. "Why did you do it that way? What did he say?"

If it's a more personal emotional issue, spend some time reading books on psychology, or even seeing a counselor, to figure it out. You'll get the hang of game management a lot faster if you are willing to deal with your orwn issues.

If you felt good about the T because you knew it was the right thing to do, then it was undoubtedly the right thing to do. If the good feeling had to do with a sort of power grab, or revenge thing, then you've got some work to do.

Either way, learn from it. Think about it. talk about it. Hey, that's what you're doing! You're on the right track.

[QUOTE=MidMadness]Boys JV game...kid has been crying the whole game about getting fouled practically everytime to the basket. Middle of the 3rd quarter kid goes in, misses layup, turns to me and says when are you going to toot the horn ref???? Perfect spot for a technical or not worth it there??? What do you think??

This is how I would have handle the situation.

It does not matter whether it is a kid or coach. When they are complaining or questioning fouls, violations etc.

Me: "That is the first and last time you get to officiate the game".

This is their warning.

And if the coach decides he doesn't want to do your job for you?

There's a whole buncha coaches out there that don't want officials telling them how to do their job. If the kid yaps after you tell the coach, you still are gonna have to do something about it. As practically everybody else said, take care of bidness early when it's still a minor problem.

[QUOTE=truerookie]Truerookie,

"That is the first and last time you get to officiate the game".

This is not an acceptable response, all you need to say is "coach I have had enough" with a stop sign, that is it! We don't need to be sarcastic!

Calling 3 seconds and conduct fouls are different things. I know it is popular to say all calls are the same. I just have never had a supervisor ever tell his staff to inform him when you call a 3 second call. If a kid does something that warrants a T, the kid got a T. For all we know this was the first type of comment that he made. This is not like this call was made in the last second of the game and the points actually decided the outcome.

Peace

[QUOTE=JRutledge]Calling 3 seconds and conduct fouls are different things. I know it is popular to say all calls are the same. I just have never had a supervisor ever tell his staff to inform him when you call a 3 second call. If a kid does something that warrants a T, the kid got a T. For all we know this was the first type of comment that he made. This is not like this call was made in the last second of the game and the points actually decided the outcome.

JRut, we are not going to agree on this one, I will leave it at that!

[QUOTE=RonRef]Completely agree! That is not something appropriate to say to a player or a coach.

This especially does not work with players -- many times if you try to be the "enforcer" they are going to come right back at you.

Instead, take a second during a free throw to talk with the player and say something like, "Hey -- I need your help here... You concentrate on playing and let me take care of the officiating, ok?"

You have to do this in a manner that doesn't embarrass the kid as well. Many times the player will respond in a positive manner -- if he/she doesn't, then you know that you are going to have to handle it in a different manner.

I disagree with this to some extent. Not all kids respond to the same type of comments. I can tell you if you work in some areas and you try to be a "nice guy" they will eat you up and talk back to you even more. This comment was not profane or necessarily confrontational. You are letting the kid know that he needs to play the game and not worry about what you are doing. I tell kids often "This is not the NBA." They get the message and we move on. Of course you have to have the demeanor to pull it off and you have to say it in the right tone. If this comment gets the kid to shut up and play the game that is what we want. We have many tools at are disposal and every tool does not work for every situation. This might work fine under the right circumstances and with the right official.

Peace

Jeff, you're right that it's important for each ref to size up the situation and the personalities in each game. Sometimes a tough guy style works well, and sometimes it backfires. The same with a nice guy approach. Personally, I find that I can't go too far in one direction or the other, and I try as hard as I can to stay very, very neutral in terms of confrontation and appeasement. But that's just what works for me. In this game, the more styles a ref can use, and the more types of kids she can read well, the better the reffing will be.

Are you saying that you would never involve the coach?

No.<i></i>

Ultimately players want to play. Sometimes you have to let them know that if they want to play, they need to knock off the BS. How you reach that conclusion and what you say is going to vary greatly based on the experience you have and the type of game you are working. I know some players approach me when they would never approach my partners. Knowing this you have to say sometimes let it be known they need to move on. I cannot tell you what to say or what not to say. I also cannot tell you what is appropriate. As far as I am concerned if we do not curse or use totally inappropriate language, we have the right to tell players what we need to so they will comply. If they do not comply, you do what you have to do.

Peace

Agreed... I guess you have to know your audience. However, I always try a Dale Carnegie approach before a confrontational one.

I'm good at both though :)

[QUOTE=RonRef]
I don't believe the comment is sarcastic. I am letting those personnel involved know their behavior will not be tolerated. Bottomline they are trying to influence how the game is officiated.

[QUOTE=Brad][QUOTE=RonRef]

Completely agree! That is not something appropriate to say to a player or a coach.


I do not see eye to eye with you on this one. First, it is ok for me to try and strike a bargain with a player by asking for his help to stop behavior that is unsporting. (Not happening!!) Second, I believe you should set the tone on what is acceptable or not. It will make the game that much funnier for all parties involved.

"Hey -- I need your help here... You concentrate on playing and let me take care of the officiating, ok?"

Is this not similiar to what I stated earlier?

[QUOTE=truerookie]Even if it is sarcastic, that is not always bad thing. Different situations require different responses.

Peace

[QUOTE=JRutledge]Mr. Rut, that is true and I can live with that.

If RonRef won't T a kid for telling him to "toot his whistle" then I suspect he doesn't have the guts to call one in the first place. I say that as an observer of Div 1 college officials for 20 years.

There is a difference in a kid "whining' because he thought he was fouled and I can handle that without the T. But when anyone, player or coach, tells me to toot my whistle he buys the T: first time, every time.

If the coach isn't smart enough to realize that I am trying to help him and do some preventive officiating then I guess I have to whack someone. I think that this helps build better communication between you and the coaches, letting them know that you can work with them and their players to better manage the game. I have never had a coach yet (knock on wood) go the opposite way as stated in your post!

Well, you ended up having to whack a coach because of an action that <b>you</b> initiated, i.e. telling a coach how to handle his own player. What you're proposing is fine <b>if</b> you know the coach and you also know he ain't gonna react adversely. With a coach that you don't know, you're taking your chances. Jmo.

JR,

I am not telling the coach how to handle his player, I am asking the coach for help with a player or players so we can avoid a situation where it will cost him 2 or more points. Most if not all of the coached are grateful.

I agree that waiting 3 qtrs to put the whining to an end is 2.5 qtrs too long. But I just don't see what your problem is with telling the coach his player needs to shut up. If the coach doesn't want to hear that is his problem, not yours. If the kid yaps after you tell the coach then the kid gets the T, same as he would have if the coach wasn't involved. I bet 99% of the time the coach will either thank you and comment that yeah the kid's a pain or thank you and remark that he doesn't usually act this way and then will tell the kid to shut his mouth.

I just don't get why you're making a big deal out of this.

Probably because I'm trying to get the point across that there is no all-inclusive way to handle <b>any</b> situation. You do what feels right to you at the particular point in the space-time continuum (I threw that in because bullsh!t baffles brains). Going over and talking to a coach is OK <b>some</b> of the time. That doesn't mean that it's OK <b>all</b> of the time. Jmo.

So there.....

It is amazing how you made that leap that I don't have any guts from a few posts. In the past 15 years I have given out my full share of technical fouls. When I first started out I was real hard guys and tried to pound my chest all the time by giving technicals out right and left, don't mess with me I am in change was my mindset. Over the years I have become more mature as an official and learned how to deal with these situations better by better communication with coaches and players. Since then my career has take an incrediable up swing. If a technical foul is warranted I will whack'em no questions asked. But in this case IMO I would have not whacked him, other on this site may have, and that is fine. Please don't make judgments about my character if you have never met me or seen me officiate. I will give you the same respect.

Probably because your laxative aint working anymore is more like it.

I will agree with 1 thing you said though. Probably not a good idea to make a show of "walking over" or "going over" to the coach to complain about a player, unless it's your intent to show the player and the coach up in front of the entire gym. Getting help from a team mate or the coach needs to be done quietly, don't make a big deal of it, just ask for (don't threaten) whatever help you need when there's a break in the action & let it go. It's between you & the guy you asked. If it works great, if not then you know what comes next.

Daryl, I respect your experience as a D1 observer. I have some idea of what that involves and the detail that you're expected to note. However, I'm just gonna disagree with you on your comments above. "Toot your whistle" may be an automatic T for you, but it's not for everyone. It's certainly not for me. It's not profane, it's not abusive, it's not excessive (by itself). It's just whining due to frustration.

I do not T for this, and I've tossed players and coaches from games. I have roughly the average amount of intestinal fortitude on a HS court. And "blow the whistle" is not a T in my games. At least, not "first time, every time". If it becomes persistent and distracting, then we find a way to take care of it.

I don't think this particular phrase is one where you want to disparage a fellow official's "guts". A coach screaming profanities in your face and you ignore it? Ok, that may show a lack of strength. But "toot your whistle"? I'm not buying that one.

I caught that too. Amazing how some people think giving or not giving T's is based on the size of your jock.

One of the toughest, most respected and successful D1 officials I know is proud of the fact that he gave very, very few T's before he retired. An ultra-uber-big-dog in real life and on the court, you do not want to be on this guys sh1t list. He just preferred methods other than T's to control his games.

JMO, the kid may have been whinning, that doesn't mean that a "T" is warranted. although something needed to be said to the kid way in advance. I think with the frustration of his playing and having a bad day. We all blame someone else when things don't go our way.I'm not saying he was right. The better players just keep playing and try harder. It may have been the right time in the 3rd quarter. It could have been the 4th quarter. JMO

I saw the the Mcnabb story, when he was drafted by the eagles and all were booing him at the draft becuase they wanted Ricky William, that made Mcnabb more deteremined to be better not complain. not everyone is a Mcnabb.

Yup....:D <i></i>

comedian in every bunch!

I've never been a fan of asking a coach to take care of his players. Opens the door for any number of inappropriate replies.

Coaches and team captains who care step in on their own. They recognize their problem players.

We all have effective ways of game management that work for us. I like to use the coach to control his players and it has works for me, you may not like it, don't use it. A coach isn't always aware of every kid’s actions during a game, I have never had any inappropriate replies by any coaches that I have talked to. It is usually the other end of the spectrum, thanks ref I will take care of him. If he doesn't take care of it and later in the game this same kid is a turd and I have to whack him, then I have this in my back pocket when the coach argues the whack.

I can't say things much better than JR. We are hired to do a job so do it when warranted. Some player behavior can be taken care of with the coaches assistance but most I take care of myself.

I guess I make a distiction between general whining and someone telling me to blow my whistle. When the former happens I will immediately address the matter (not always the same way). The latter is not acceptable and no warning given.

I accept the fact that some of you try to involve the coach but lets face it, not all situations warrant that. As Dan_Ref said, the whining should have been taken care of 2 1/2 quarters earlier. Maybe then the T would never have happened. I have observed many officials over the years and in almost every case those who believed as Ron Ref did that neither the whining nor the toot your whistle outburst warranted a T, the number of T's they have given collectively in their carreers is miniscule. Additionally, thier games are very stressful and the more difficult rating I place on those game is due to officials not doing their jobs efficiently.

I have seen many D1 refs who I have evaluated or scouted who are not of that calibre and were way above their heads when it came to officiating at that level. They got there because of who they know and not on ability. I have seen other D1 refs who can boast of few T's because they take care of the little things so the big ones are less likely to happen.

As I stated earlier there are many ways to deal with game management issues. Just because we take care of these issues in different ways doesn't mean either one of us is right or wrong. We all bring different talents to the officiating table. Some may use the technical foul and that works for them, some may like to be more proactive and use the coach/captain to resolve problems, whatever works for you. I also understand that we all have difference levels of tolerance for this type of behavior and there can't be an absolute rule when to whack and when not to whack the player or coach.

RonRef:

You want absolute? You want absolute? You can't handle absolute! :D

If NF Rule 10-3-7a is not absolute enough for you then there is nothing more I can say.

Telling me to "toot my whistle" in disgust is as disrespectful as a player can get.

It maybe to you and other officials, but to a lot of officials that doesn't warrant a technical foul.

Yup, that was my point. It might be fine for some situations, but it might be throwing gas on a fire in other situations.

As for technical fouls, imo they're always very subjective. Everybody has a different tolerance level. As long as the game is ultimately kept under control, that's really all that matters. I do think that your tolerance level has to increase with the level of ball being played though. What is a "T" at the high school level might not be a "T" at the college level.

Having said that, I too have a low tolerance at the high school level re: whining, moaning ballplayers. Sometimes they'll get a warning; sometimes they won't. But as long as they're consistent, the ballplayers and coaches usually will adjust to the official's style.

Around here most of the "Rec" leagues are brutal with a great deal of physical play. You notice it often when the City League and Catholic schools play the suburban schools in high school contests.

Then that's a stupid coach. If the ref is trying to get his help with a kid that's going to hurt his team, I would think most quality coaches are gonna handle that kid. :confused:

Generally, if I'm imploring the coaches help, I simply let them know that #?? is not focused. I have never had a coach say anything negative back to me (keep in mind, this is not the first time I've communicated with that coach). I have had coaches who do nothing and then get upset with their player when the other teams coach is choosing his shooter. I try to find ways to have short convos with coaches and also try to find my ally from each team. These players will generally help out when asked.

I agree with those who said one thing will not work everytime, but something will work.

Is this just a clash of old school versus new school officials? I have been taught to listen and communicate more with the coaches and work with them to help the game facilitate itself. Do old school officials have the opposite philosophy?

Being new school, I will say that is not true. What others are saying is your approach my work for you and it may not for others. Tolerance levels are different. I personally would not ask a coach for any assistance with a player. I will handle the situation. I would not even attempt to giving a coach any opportunity to help me officiate the game that is my JOB!! Someone, stated earlier coaches and player know who the problem player will be and they would normally step in and handle the situation. One can still commuicate with the coaches, I believe this is done when they are asking a question (jmo) any other time leave them alone. So it is not an old school vs
new shcool philosophy.

I am very surprised that guys don't use head coaches to help calm "their" players down. This is a easy tool to use to control the game without tossing out a margianl technical foul.

Ron, I guess everyone has a different way of game management. I had an expereince last night doing HS boys, It was getting real physical under the boards. At one point too physical. My partner called a double foul. The next play down court the same situation. He ejected both players for throwing elbows. After the ejection is when he used the coaches to tell them we will not tolerate that kind of play. The rest of the game went real well, close game and the true talent actually came out in all the players.

I am not saying it should be used in every situation, but surely there are times during the game when using the coach can really help out the game so maybe we don't have technical foul and ejections that seriously impact the outcome of the game. When I hear guys say they will never use the coach to help "them" referee I really think they are missing the boat IMO!

I hear you. I agree with you, in some situations, coaches should be used. Ultimately they are responsible for their players. We are responsible on making sure that the game is played the way it should be. By the rules set in place.

Ron, you are completely mis-interpreting what Daryl is trying to tell you. Btw, I fully agree with Daryl.

Daryl said <i>"I accept the fact that some of you try to involve the coach, but let's face it, not <b>all</b> situations warrant that'</i>. The key word is "all". Neither of us ever said that you should <b>never</b> have a conversation with a coach. It's got nothing to do with old school vs. new school. It has got everything to do with disagreeing with you on when or why a coach actually should be approached.... i.e. the <b>actual</b> circumstances where or when a coach should be approached iow. That's where both Daryl and I disagree with you. Neither one of us would approach a coach at the time and under the circumstances that you are recommending.

As per his post, TrueRookie understood what Daryl and I were trying to say

I guess we aren't going to see eye to eye on this one, again.

I guess you could safely say "never". It's just a difference of <b>personal</b> philosophies, is all.

JR, I totally agree that we will always have philosophical differences, but this doesn't mean that we are right or wrong...just different.

Here's what TrueRookie says, sounds like NEVER to me:


I will handle the situation. I would not even attempt to giving a coach any opportunity to help me officiate the game that is my JOB!!

btw, here's what I hear coming out of your little spat, JR:

Ronref: This is a tool I sometimes use
JR: Wrong! This is a tool you should only use sometimes!
Ronref: Right, it should be done some of the time.
JR: Wrong! You should only do this some of the time!

As I said earlier, I can't see what the big deal is.

I ALWAYS think the coach should be an OPTION! At the high school and especially the college level coaches say the officials won't talk to me (communicate), when I use them to help out with a given situation I am just doing what they have been asking of us.

There is a difference between "always" and "sometimes", Dan.

It's true, it's true.....

What else is true is he said it's "always" an option. You know, as in "always" a choice.

Comminication is "always" an option. Whether you chose to take that option or not depends on many things. IOW "sometimes" you do, "sometimes" you don't.

Anything else?

I'm done eating lunch so I'll chime in quickly, not that anyone necessarily wants my opinion. Talking to coaches about sportsmanship can be a slippery slope. The coach may well agree with the player that you are stinking up the joint. I will use coaches to help with players, but only when I know them pretty well. Also, how come no one has brought up talking to other players, especially the captains, of the player's team. I'll occasionally say to another player, "take care of your teammate there before I have to." Also, instead of warning the player, catch them durning a free throw or sometime, and tell them they are way too good a player to spend the whole game whining. I've had success with that one. It is kind of a trial and error method to finding your game managment style. On a side note, this is a JV game, so why take so much crap from a kid. Warn him once, then take care of business. JV kids are there to learn to play at the varsity level, not evaluate officials.

I am all for talking to a player at a dead ball situation as you stated. I would like to use captains more but most of the time they are some of the worst offenders you have to deal with during the game.

Because they feel it's their "right" to speak to you, so they can say whatever they want.

It's not "always" a choice. It's "sometimes" a choice.

As that great rules pundit, Tiny, is wont to say- <i>"Don't be a garbageman."</i>

Well that's just stupid.

http://blogs.indiewire.com/reversesh...s/confused.jpg

Fort Ticonderoga Tiny or Chattanooga Tennessee Tiny?

In his case....plain ol' <font size = -4>"Tiny"</font>.

I like to talk to the players during freethrows I have told A1 that it may be a good idea for him to tell A2 that he needs to calm down that is after I have had a chance to talk to him to of course this is no where near any thing getting out of hand I sometimes will tell A1 to tell A2 that he needs to tuck his shirt that is when both can hear me I know some guys dont do that but it works for me sometimes it does and sometimes it dontwhen it doesnt I take care of it myself If I get the chance to talk to the coach I will but I dont go out of my way to talk to them about situations like that

U got some great responses. At any level, j.v. to NBA...the first or second time he said something it needed to be address with him with words or a look. u could extend over to the coach but it should never last over to the 3rd. Its almost a you made your bed situation.
Here's a good comment that's professional and makes the point. Number #, here's the deal I'm not going to embarassed u and u r not going to embarass me. I need for u to play and save ur comments otherwise u r going to get me involve in this game. And look him square in the eye. And I may say do we understand each other?
Otherwise, next time--T.
If the coach ask what you said to his player tell him u warn him. He was drawing too much attention to himself.
T's r to help the game. Never show up or get shown up.As long as u r professional your boss can back u up.

Awesome response. I like this but j.v. or otherwise TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS.

Dude, to paraphrase David Spade: It's called punctuation -- check it out.

that's funny. DUDE.