Greece?

[kiwiref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Secondly, I do not think most would care from this country if they were in a European Hall of Fame.
Peace

Exactly... And that's why so very few people outside the US give a rats *** about the HoF. The goal is not to find a universal element of greatness, but to document mainly local history.

And to answer Dan at the same time, you can't compare leagues with tournaments. I never questioned the quality of players in NBA (or, for that matter, of the officials). My response was to comments how WC and other international competitions suck both in terms of the quality of the basketball, and in terms of officiating.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kiwiref

Exactly... And that's why so very few people outside the US give a rats *** about the HoF. The goal is not to find a universal element of greatness, but to document mainly local history.

If you knew anything about this country you would realize that no one gives a damn about the HoF here either (as it relates to basketball). I bet most basketball fans have very little knowledge as to who is actually in the HoF.

The Pro Basketball HoF is a far 3rd to Football and Basketball.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The Pro Basketball HoF is a far 3rd to Football and Basketball.

Peace

Did you mean baseball's HoF?

Actually, 4th, if you count the Rock 'n Roll HoF in Cleveland as well.

[Jimgolf]

Good job by Greece on Friday, but I think we saw the real Greece on Sunday morning against Spain. Without their pick-and-rolls going undefended, Greece was unable to score.

The US would beat Greece 9 times out of 10. It's just that the 1 in 10 came on Friday. They played as hard as they could and the result was success. Sort of the American dream, no?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Did you mean baseball's HoF?

Actually, 4th, if you count the Rock 'n Roll HoF in Cleveland as well.

The Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame seem to be a joke. They let anyone in that thing.

I did mean the baseball HoF.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame seem to be a joke. They let anyone in that thing.

True. They let M&M in......for 20 bucks.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

True. They let M&M in......for 20 bucks.

Here's a picture of M&M when he found out it was $20 to get in...

[REFVA]

The simple fact is the Greece and other international teams play with heart and not with the pocket$$$$. Even some of the runaway games those team still gave it all they had. I'll bet anyone one team combined doesn't have the payroll that just any one player on the US team has. Yes the US is somewhat superior to most teams, but nitty gritty, get down to the best in the world, It could have been a 10 games series the US would have lost again and agian. They don't play with guts but the $$$$$$$$$.

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The USA team and player development in this country are not in the same ball park. You cannot even compare the two things in any way. Kids do not grow up to play in the Olympics anymore. Kids grow up wanting to be in the NBA.

I don't know, but I doubt that kids in Lithuania, Spain, Brazil, Italia, Turkey, Croatia, etc., grow up wanting to play in the Olympics. A euro youth player's first goal would be to make a domestic club team, and work his way up thru club play to the highest levels. From there they probably have the same dream as USA kids- they dream of playing in the NBA too, because that's where the $ is.

How is player development different? Specifically? Because that's where we have to start looking to do better, and even a cursory exmination exposes that the differences are so deeply entrenched that they are cultural. Brian Grasso wrote about observing unsupervised young players come into a gym in Switzerland and start warming up, compared to the same scene in ANY GYM USA. The Swiss kids began with 3-4 mins of range of motion and dynamic warm up movements w/o a ball. Then they paired up and did 2-3 mins of 1/2 court defensive slides against a zig-zag dribble. When they started shooting, they began from in close, obviously focusing on form, then gradually moving out further. Compare that to the same unsupervised scene in ANY GYM USA, we both know what it would look like- kids enter the gym off the dribble, and immediately start jacking uo three's.

Is it primarily that overseas they aren't training to peak early for HS and AAU? Is the problem that the shoe companies are running USA basketball at 18U and below? Is it that in practice we tend to emphasize defense for up to 1/2 of any given practice session, while overseas they focus more on offense and scoring? It's still more similar than different- played with a 29" round ball, 5 players per side, rules very similar, objective the same (to score). It is entirely comparable, in fact by doing the comparing, that is where we can start to identify where USA has fallen behind developmentally, imo.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I know you do not want to hear this but THE UNITED STATES HAS BETTER PLAYERS. The problem is you are not going to get all the better players at each position from the USA when those players play in the NBA. The NBA Season ended in June. Training camp starts in September/October. Not many players want to sacrifice time off to play in international play. The USA team trained for 2 months. So players like Wade only had a few weeks off.

Is Wade the only player who plays almost year round? Do we know how much time off euro players and teams have had? I tried to figre it out on the internet, and it looks like the top euro players are pretty much going year round. In any case- This is exactly what I was taliking about- when WE say these kinds of things (our best players MIA, tired from long NBA season, short training camp) the assumption is that these are VALID REASONS for failure. Like, "We would have won, but...." Or, "Yeah we got beat -again- but they shot the lights out, otherwise we would have won." The underlying setiment being yeah sure we lost -again- but we're really still better than them. Excuses. Did you see where 2 nights later in the Final, Spain whupped Greece's *** without tournament MVP Pao Gasol, their best player? The next "fall back" excuse is the 7 game series point. As in they could never beat us in a 7 game series. Seriously though, I think it's legitimately questionalbe that in 6 more games, that team USA could have done any better defending the pick & roll? No one in the NBA ever did with Sloan's P & R when Stockton and Malone were running it. When Utah did get beat, it wasn't because they couldn't get the P&R.

There's nothing wrong with the make up of the USA team, imo. It was put together with FIBA play in mind. How could it be better? Maybe more role players like Battier? Would it be better with Kobe on it? D Wade, Lebron and Melo are creative enough athletic scorers, and it's even debatable that D Wade and LeBron are just as good if not better volume scorers than Kobe. Who then? Maybe they need Shaq? Do we really think Shaq would "fix" the team with his presense on it? I think the wide lane would hurt low post game. I think we'd see him standing at the short corner a lot, out of the paint, and out of his range. I also think it's likely that he might have difficulty matching up- because you know the opponents would spread out, maybe even go open post, and make Shaq come out on the perimeter on defense. Duncan would probably help, at least he has that nice mid range jumper he likes to shoot off the glass.

I know I'm probably on thin ice here- I've seen what can sometimes happen in here when a coach disagree with a referee, but this is just basketball, it's not personal, right"? I respect the hell out of you guys for the job you do. In fact over the years I've come to admire the job you do and the professional way you do it more often than I can say that about fellow coaches. I just wanted to make it known- I'm not a hater. In fact, I refereed my 2nd season of summer league ball at Mendocino JC for Coach Wieper this summer. Having paused to say that....

If "THE UNITED STATES HAS BETTER PLAYERS," as you claim, then it's at the game of one on one. Unfortunately the game of basketball isn't played one on one except for on playgrounds. The following is from the AP-

" SAITAMA, Japan -- As they warmed up before Friday's semifinal against Greece, the U.S. players put on a jam session for the fans. Dwight Howard dunked emphatically. Dwyane Wade bounced the ball off the backboard, caught it and stuffed. Elton Brand jammed an alley-oop pass. Finally, LeBron James flew down the lane for a tomahawk. As the crowd roared, the Greeks lined up at the other end and shot free throws. The moment foretold Greece's 101-95 victory in the semifinals of the world championships."

I'd have to agree- the USA players are better 1 on 1 players and they can certainly establish that durring warm ups. Unfortunately Greece went on to establish who had the better TEAM. I'm just tired of excuses, that's all.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

I'd have to agree- the USA players are better 1 on 1 players and they can certainly establish that durring warm ups. Unfortunately Greece went on to establish who had the better TEAM. I'm just tired of excuses, that's all.

I do not hear anyone making excuses. I think the reality is the WC is not a major concern no more than the World Cup is thought of in Soccer in this country. If it was, all the best players in this country would be knocking each other over to get on the team. Instead many of the better players take the time off.

Even with winning the Bronze medal, no one is jumping off a cliff because we did not win the Gold. The novelty wore off when the USA was dominating in Seoul and a few years after that. To many of these other countries this is a big deal. Not sure how that will change, but they get their best players every tournament and we have to decide who is not coming rather than whom to leave off the team.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

I It is entirely comparable, in fact by doing the comparing, that is where we can start to identify where USA has fallen behind developmentally, imo.

I'm just tired of excuses, that's all.

Well thought out and written post imo, Coach.

[zeke]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

You might like to watch it, but Florida / UCLA would have lost by 30. There is no way an NCAA team could compete with the top 8 international teams.

Greece plays basketball the way it's supposed to be played: pass, cut, screen, layup. Defend. Repeat.

Agreed. The Overseas players are better fundamentally than the Americans. Well documented. We are to into the dunks and sportscenter to concentrate on the basics.

[Nevadaref]

And now the USA womens' team goes down.

Like it or not, European basketball is here to stay.

[Junker]

I'm getting in on this one way late, but this post reminded me of a HBO Real Sports segment about basketball camps. They compared European camps with American Camps. The European camps are like American camps used to be as in they run drills, run drills and run drills. American campers play meaningless games, play meaningless games, and play meaningless games. The point of the story is that our player are extremely gifted, but they don't learn to play fundamental basketball anymore. In fact, they claimed some of the NBA clinicians they broughth over had a hard time with some of the drills they were making their high schoolers do. It was pretty interesting.

[26 Year Gap]

Just got back from a business conference and Magic Johnson was one of the keynote speakers. Someone asked him the question as to whether we would dominate again. He said there was only one dream team. He said that Coach Daly split them up East vs West for practices and that those were the most intense 'games' he has ever been a part of. He summed it up in that the Dream Team was a team. They wanted to be up by 30 at halftime. They didn't care who scored. And that today's player is different. And until that changes, we will not dominate again.

Now I did not watch any of the recent games and only read stuff in the paper or here or similar places. And there seemed to be one guy taking a lion's share of shots. It is not just International ball, either. Certain NBA teams have that problem as well and you know they will never win it all.

My point about the college teams is that they play as teams more than as 5 individuals. Here is an interesteing quiz...can anybody name the starting five for Greece without looking it up?