Greece?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Top 6 from NCAA champ & top 6 from NCAA runner-up. That would worth watching.

They gave up sending the college kids in 1988 because they were getting their azz handed to them. And they were NCAA all-star teams. Basketball US went to the pros because the NCAA players were losing so much.

[mopar60]

Obviously many others countries have learned to play the game at it's highest level, now the question is will the American's learn the art of good sportsmanship from the rest of the world?

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

They gave up sending the college kids in 1988 because they were getting their azz handed to them. And they were NCAA all-star teams. Basketball US went to the pros because the NCAA players were losing so much.

The point I was making was that all-star teams are not necessarily the best option. Guys who play well together is a much better way to go. Heck, you could send Miami & Dallas [you'd have to go deeper than 6 with Dallas obviously] and you would have a better result. Otherwise everyone thinks their role is "Give me the ball and I'll score."

[bbcoach7]

I think that's all there is to it- the USA got beat by a better team, simple as that. Honestly, I wonder if the Heat, or the Pistons, or the Mavs would beat Greece. Team USA hasn't won a major international tournament since 2002. It seems like when we point out the fundamental flaws with USA basketball, the underlying theme is that's why we haven't been winning tournaments in international play. No, sorry, that's not why. It's because our excellent teams are getting beat by better teams. It hasn't sunk in yet. In peoples imaginations, the best basketball on the planet is still being played in the USA, but for this reason, or that reason (excuses), we are getting beat by inferior competition.

I think we do the game an injustice, and I've been guilty of it too. But it's time to wake up. We insult quality basketball with our misplaced assumptions of some kind of latent superiority. As if all we need to do is get things straightened out, and all will be back to normal (USA dominance) in the world of international basketball. Maybe this is normal now. A level playing field, no longer dominated by the country that invented the sport.

Maybe there's nothing "wrong." Why do we just assume that something has to be wrong with USA basketball? When we do that, we make the underlying assumption that these international teams really are not that good, that they aren't supposed to be beating out boys, that in order for them to beat the USA, something has to be wrong. Maybe we just got beat by a better team. I mean, that's usually what we assume when one team wins and the another team loses- that the better team won.

I don't even want to hear the, "we got better individual players" comments. Or, "we are more athletic." So what, you still got beat. It's a team game. Even if it were true, which it isn't, better more athletic players losing doesn't expose what is wrong with development any more than it tells you who is better.

Is there problems with the development of youth players in the USA? Sure there is. Can we do better? Absolutely. But lets not fool ourselves. There will be over 100 international players in the NBA this season. People just need to get it thru their heads that we aren't the best any longer. From year to year there may be other teams that are better than the USA squad- no matter who we put on the team. The USA will never again dominate international basketball- and that's a good thing. We may win more gold medals, but it's always going to be competitive.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

Is there problems with the development of youth players in the USA? Sure there is. Can we do better? Absolutely. But lets not fool ourselves. There will be over 100 international players in the NBA this season. People just need to get it thru their heads that we aren't the best any longer. From year to year there may be other teams that are better than the USA squad- no matter who we put on the team. The USA will never again dominate international basketball- and that's a good thing. We may win more gold medals, but it's always going to be competitive.

The USA team and player development in this country are not in the same ball park. You cannot even compare the two things in any way. Kids do not grow up to play in the Olympics anymore. Kids grow up wanting to be in the NBA.

I know you do not want to hear this but THE UNITED STATES HAS BETTER PLAYERS. The problem is you are not going to get all the better players at each position from the USA when those players play in the NBA. The NBA Season ended in June. Training camp starts in September/October. Not many players want to sacrifice time off to play in international play. The USA team trained for 2 months. So players like Wade only had a few weeks off.

The Greece team did not have one player on their team that was in the NBA. But all those players had been together for years and years. There was a reason that George Mason got to the Final Four this year. That team played together and had more experience. International play works the same way.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

Team USA hasn't won a major international tournament since 2002.

Just for the record, the last time the US won internationally was 2000. They were 6th in the 2002 Worlds Championship played in Indy.

[kiwiref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I know you do not want to hear this but THE UNITED STATES HAS BETTER PLAYERS. The problem is you are not going to get all the better players at each position from the USA when those players play in the NBA.

So, NBA clubs are overlooking some of the best US players in favor of inferior players from abroad? Nice one...
The idea that national teams (other than USA) play together for years - do you really think that other nations have their teams play together for 4 years before they send them to a competition? You don't think these players play in other leagues? I know you don't want to hear this, but THERE IS BASKETBALL OUTSIDE USA. And these guys are playing it...And they are kicking some ***.
In the end, basketball is a team sport, and you don't win the game even if you do have five of the best individual players in the world on the court. You win when you have the best team. Having a college coach has certainly helped this time around, and finishing 3rd is certainly an improvement on being 6th in 2002.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kiwiref

So, NBA clubs are overlooking some of the best US players in favor of inferior players from abroad? Nice one...
The idea that national teams (other than USA) play together for years - do you really think that other nations have their teams play together for 4 years before they send them to a competition? You don't think these players play in other leagues? I know you don't want to hear this, but THERE IS BASKETBALL OUTSIDE USA. And these guys are playing it...And they are kicking some ***.

Of course there is basketball being played outside of the US. I will say this, who outside the US that has come to the NBA is a bona fide Hall of Famer (they cannot have attended college in the US, so Hakeem does not count)? Most of the recent draft picks from foreign countries cannot get off the bench on mediocre teams. And the foreign players that do play played college ball in the US before going to the NBA. Just give me one player that played outside the US, was drafted by the NBA and that is now a can't miss Hall of Famer? Now when you find that one player please let me know. The only dominant player outside of the United States is Steve Nash and he is from Canada. Nash also went to an American College. Even Dirk Nowitzki is a very good player, but until this year was not anywhere near dominating and when he needed to come through, he failed big time. Of course many players have come from outside the US and have NBA success, but I do not know if you can claim they are the best players year in and year out. Outside of the old Soviet Union, not many teams had any period of dominance other than the United States.

Your argument seems about as pointless as someone from this country saying that some of the best soccer players play in the United States. Now you would consider that comment ridiculous if that was said by someone on this board from this country. Now basketball is becoming more and more international, but the kids here play basketball more than just about any other sport. Most officials in this county can find a game 12 months out of the year to officiate. Kids here play in their sleep and in many cases play on multiple teams in one off-season. Michael Jordan did not play for Zimbabwe; he played for the NC Tar Heals and the Chicago Bulls. I am sure if Pele was from the United States everyone might not be as big of a basketball junkie, but that is not the case and some of histories greatest basketball players happened to play here and not in another country.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Dražen Petrović:NBA player (Portland Trailblazers, New Jersey Nets), Born in Croatia, Did not play at an American college or university (University of Zagreb, Croatia), Member of the Basketball Hall of Fame (Inducted 2002).

[JRutledge]

One guy.

I guess that proves the point.

Peace

[kiwiref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

One guy.

I guess that proves the point.

Peace

Vlade Divac...Joins Hakeem Olajuwon and Kareem Abdul-Jabaar as the only players in NBA history to amass 13,000 points, 9,000 rebounds, 3,000 assists and 1,500 blocked shots. And coming from Serbia, he also never played college ball in States.

Yes, it proves the point, although not the one you are thinking of.
My argument was that having five great individuals does not mean you have a great team, and as basketball is a team sport you need a great team to win consistently.
Not that I want to poke any more holes in your story, but Yugoslavia won 5 WC titles. Which is kinda more than the old Soviet Union, or USA for that matter.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kiwiref

Vlade Divac...Joins Hakeem Olajuwon and Kareem Abdul-Jabaar as the only players in NBA history to amass 13,000 points, 9,000 rebounds, 3,000 assists and 1,500 blocked shots. And coming from Serbia, he also never played college ball in States.

I do not think Valde Divac is going to make the Basketball Hall of Fame anytime soon. We was a decent player, but not a Hall of Famer. He was not even a dominate player or a go to guy on any of his teams.

Originally Posted by kiwiref

Yes, it proves the point, although not the one you are thinking of.
My argument was that having five great individuals does not mean you have a great team, and as basketball is a team sport you need a great team to win consistently.
Not that I want to poke any more holes in your story, but Yugoslavia won 5 WC titles. Which is kinda more than the old Soviet Union, or USA for that matter.

Where have you been? Did I not already make the "team" point?

My main point is you are not going to get many foreign players that are considered the best in the world. You should have referenced Drazen Dalipagic who is Yugoslavia born and never played in the USA or the NBA. Also understand the Basketball Hall of Fame is not about the NBA only. College players and coaches, NBA players and coaches, international players and coaches and contributors to the game all can be inducted.

Either way it goes, the USA is where basketball is played at its best. I do not know how FIBA officials see any better talent on a night in and night out basis like an NBA official.

[kiwiref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think Valde Divac is going to make the Basketball Hall of Fame anytime soon. We was a decent player, but not a Hall of Famer.

Hall of Fame is the criteria for greatness? I mean, the place is a museum, and sure, it's dedicated to basketball, but you can't make this a world-wide measure of greatness.
There are 12 referees inducted, and only two in the past 20 years (Earl Strom 1995, and Zigmund Mihalik in 1986). Are you suggesting that the world has seen only two great referees in the past 20 years?
Hall of Fame is not an international institution, it is an american organization, and it's primary focus will be always on the american game, which is fair enough. But rest assured that if, say, europeans were to form their basketball hall of fame, it would not include most of the 70 coaches in the US version, but would include many europeans who have helped develope basketball in europe.
I would find more credibility in looking at the stats and saying, hell, this guy can play! IMHO

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kiwiref

Hall of Fame is the criteria for greatness? I mean, the place is a museum, and sure, it's dedicated to basketball, but you can't make this a world-wide measure of greatness.
There are 12 referees inductedo and only two in the past 20 years (Earl Strom 1995, and Zigmund Mihalik in 1986). Are you suggesting that the world has seen only two great referees in the past 20 years?
Hall of Fame is not an international institution, it is an american organization, and it's primary focus will be always on the american game, which is fair enough. But rest assured that if, say, europeans were to form their basketball hall of fame, it would not include most of the 70 coaches in the US version, but would include many europeans who have helped develope basketball in europe.

First of all it is very rare that any officials in any sport ever make the Hall of Fame. At least that is the case in this country. It is not like officials have stats that are easily measurable. Unless you say how many big games they worked and how long they have worked, then that is not something I can answer easily.

Secondly, I do not think most would care from this country if they were in a European Hall of Fame.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by kiwiref

.
I would find more credibility in looking at the stats and saying, hell, this guy can play! IMHO

Me too.

When was the last time someone couldn't get a Euro league contract & had to move to North America & settle for the NBA as a place to play pro ball?

tia.