Bringing in a Sub after free throws.
 

During a summer league game. We had a discussion on when to bring a substitute in during free throws.
Situation: After the first of a two shot free throws there was no sub a the scores table. Then after the official bonce the ball to the free throw shooter a sub went to the table. One of the official during the game said that because the ball was in the hands of the free thrower that the sub could not enter the game. However, after a made free throw the ball become dead until in the hands of a team for a throw in. So, with that should the sub had enter the game?

I am not sure what you are asking, but I will give you what can happen.

When shooting 2 shot FTs (or multiple FTs) a sub cannot come into the game until after the last FT is completed and successful. If the last shot is missed, they have to wait until the clock is stopped for a timeout or a stoppage in play.

Peace

Time out
 

If a time out is calls before administering FT's. After the time out does the lead official blow the whistles to signal ready for play?

No.

Peace

I know it to be it this way, if 2 free throws, substitution can enter after the first of two. If the sub is not at the table side after the first, but by the second he walks to table side, sub can only enter after the second of two is made, the ball is dead official blows whistle and sub can enter.

When can a sub enter? -- When the ball is dead and the clock is stopped. (exception: during FTs only before the last)

Are those conditions met when a player has the ball ready to shoot a FT?

If not, when are those conditions next met?

(You'll have to get those last two answers yourself)

If the player made the second free throw, the substitute should be allowed, if that is what you are asking.

If you are asking if the player should have been permitted after the ball was given to the shooter, but before the attempt was converted, the answer is no.

As I understand it, a substitute can enter the game during free throws prior to the last shot that will become a live ball if missed (not sure if I said that right). This means prior to the first shot of a 1-and-1 situation (also prior to the second shot of the 1-and-1), prior to the second shot of a two shot foul, and prior to the third shot of a three shot foul, a substitution can be made, assuming the sub is at the table.

A substitute can also enter to shoot free throws for a technical foul or to replace an injured or disqulified player.

After the last shot of a free throw sequence is completed, a subsitution may also be made.

Is that everything?

Nba
 

And for what iot's worth, in NBA, they can enter after the first free throw. but after that, they have to wait until the next dead ball following the last free throws. (Or so it was in my pro summer league).

By the book, YES, but most people don't do it. I always do if I am the administering official.

NFHS rules book references: 8-1-2 . . . Following a time out or intermission, the resumption-of-play procedure may be used to prevent delay. The timer will sound the authorized warning horn and final signal. The administering official will sound the whistle to indicate play will resume. The ball shall be placed at the disposal of the thrower or placed on the floor and the count shall begin. Either or both teams may be charged with a violation. Following a violation by one or both teams, if the offending team(s) continues to delay, a technical foul shall be called.


The officials manual also details this in sections 274 and 275. "After the second horn to end the time-out or intermission, the administering official shall sound his/her whistle to indicate play is ready to resume."

So the whistle is really supposed to be sounded prior to resuming play no matter how the game will continue (throw-in, jump ball, free throw). Although most people only blow it prior to administering a throw-in.

Nevadaref has it right
 

By rule, we are supposed to sound the whistle to indicate the start of play. I brought this to the attention of my local officials association and the association basically took a vote that, in the area where I live, we will NOT sound the whistle before a free throw (but we will continue to do so prior to a throw in).

Although I think it's a little odd that an officials association would just decide to ignore a rule, I'm not going to make this *my* issue. The point of sounding the whistle prior to resuming play is to get everyone's attention and let them know things are starting back up. You can accomplish this prior to a free throw by stepping into the lane and announcing how many free throws will be shot and then bouncing the ball to the thrower.

The key words are "at the end of a timeout or intermission". The FED also recommends (somewhere) that you do so after an unusual delay also. Any other time ----> no whistle.

That's all you have to remember.

I know this is the case. I guess (where I live, anyway) there's always been the exception of blowing the whistle after a TO, but before a FT. Maybe the feeling is any other time, players will be moving full speed during a throw-in, but players still stand around during a FT until it hits the rim. I'm not sure the reasoning. I believe that is the case in NCAA as well - I've never heard anyone blow the whistle to administer a FT, even after a TO.

In all my years of officiating, I cannot think of one time I have ever officiated a basketball game where an official blew their whistle before a FT after a timeout. I have never seen that happen or known anyone to advocate doing such a thing.

Also, this is not a rule; it is a mechanic in the NF book. Mechanics can always be changed, ignored or modified by local associations and state organizations. You can look for examples of this all over the country according to Mary Struckoff and there is no penalty for anyone to change a mechanic for their officials. I have never heard anyone at any camp I have ever attended admonish someone over blowing the whistle at this time.

Peace

You are correct in that this is "only" a mechanic. But you are aware the IHSA wants their officials to use <B>all</B> the prescribed Fed. mechanics, and they have made it clear that post-season assignments can be affected by the use or non-use of the prescribed mechanics.

Now, that said, I hope they don't keep officials from doing the post-season just because they don't blow the whistle in this particular instance. And, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that doesn't blow the whistle in this case as well. But it does appear that the Fed. wants it blown at the start of a FT, after a TO.

Anyone else blow the whistle in this case? Or not? (Uh oh, I feel a poll coming on...)

M&M, that is not true. We use a lot of mechanics that are not listed in the book or are modified. For example the how we administer the ball on the end line is different than what it says in the NF Official's Manual. Also when the NF could not decide for a few years whether to long switch or not to long switch, we were doing a completely different mechanic for that 2 or 3 year stretch.

I also go to the camp of our Head Clinician every year. He openly tells people that his way is the way the IHSA is doing things. And openly talks about how many clinicians across the state are teaching mechanics that are not the "correct way."

Peace

Ok, now I'm confused - you say there are a "lot of mechanics that are not listed in the book or are modified". Besides the endline positioning, what other mechanics are being taught by the IHSA clinicians that are not in the Fed. manual? The reason I'm asking is we have had both Kurt Gibson and Beth Sauser of the IHSA speak at our association meetings, at separate times, and they have specifically said they want all the prescribed Fed. mechanics used. They also said if they observe an official not use the prescribed mechanics, it could hurt their chances to appear or advance in the post-season.

I just wonder if there are some clinicians that feel "their way" is better than what the Fed. prescribes. But doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a uniform way of doing things? Ok, maybe there's some merit to doing things differently - for example, I did like the "no long switches" mechanic from college. But since I was doing HS, I settled for doing it the way the Fed. prescribed (grumbling every time I did it, of course), because that was the way other HS officials who I worked with did it. I was glad when the Fed. finally changed it, but until they did, I followed what they said.

I will agree with your statment on many clinicians not teaching the proper mechanics. I have even personally seen state final-level officials, who are also clinicians, teach that "flexing" isn't all that important. :eek:

I am not saying we do not use most NF Mechanics, I am telling you there are things we use that are not "by the letter or book" NF mechanics. And from year to year the clinicians get together and come up with things that need to be done better. That brings changes like not bouncing the ball on the end line. That specific mechanic has been used for at least 4 years or so and Harry Bohn was adamant that you do not bounce the ball on the end line, because officials were going up court before the ball was in place. I also described the long switch situation that changed and the NF was going back and forth as to what to do. Beth and Kurt run their respective sports, but Harry has a lot of say as to what mechanics are used. I know Kurt pretty much goes along with what Harry states or makes a mechanic. I can also speak as a multiple sport official in football and baseball and we use a lot of mechanics that are only found on the PowerPoint Presentation with mechanics.

Well if it did not come from Harry Bohn, then I might just agree with you. When I heard of these mechanics, Harry was the one actually teaching them. Harry also lives right in my back yard. I also work HS games for him and have for about 3 or 4 years. In my area officials and clinicians refer to Harry in almost God like ways when talking about mechanics and philsophy. I cannot speak for other parts of the state, but around here he has great influence and when we talk to Kurt and Beth they reference him when it comes to mechanics. Also in basketball we do not deviate from massive aspects of NF mechanics because most of the mechanics are solid and consistent with other levels in many areas.

All I can tell you is every camp Harry runs or when he speaks at meetings, he always seems to reference "What I am telling is the way we are doing this in Illinois." I have also in conversations I have had with him (not just one on one, but at a social or bar somewhere on many occasions). I would not say this if I have not heard directly from the mouths of Harry and other Clinicians about this topic. Also understand Harry picks the clinicians and he can get rid of clinicians as well. So a guy teaching their own thing might not be around if the word gets out.

Peace

Poor Derrick - I think we've hijacked his thread slightly. I hope he's learning a little about mechanics anyway. :)

I've heard about Harry, but I've never had the pleasure of meeting him. But the comments about doing a mechanic different than the Fed. mechanic shows my point. He feels not bouncing the ball along the endline in the backcourt is important because officials aren't staying back. Valid point, but instead of teaching a different mechanic to the officials, how about just teaching them to stay back? How do we, outside the Chicago area, find out about this if we don't attend a camp where he is the clinician? Is there an "Illinois Mechanics Differences" booklet or paper somewhere? If I get the chance to do a game up in the suburbs sometime, and he happens to watch the game, would I get critiqued for not doing the way he teaches it in Illinois?

Granted, this is a relatively minor mechanic we're talking about. But it does kind of illustrate my point about doing things differently, even within the same state. With the state requirement on only attending a clinic once every 3 years, it could be a while before a mechanic difference shows up all over the state. That doesn't even address philosophy differences, such as how a game will be called on the south side of Chicago, vs. a game in the west central part of the state. Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of trying to be uniform, and giving the kids a consistantly-called game, no matter where they go?

No easy answers, just thoughts running around my head. Obviously, if Harry tells you to do this, and you work for him, that is what you will do. But it just seems like Harry is doing what IAABO does, and each different state does, that is decide they like to do things a little differently than the Fed. It would be nice if we could all do it the same. I know, and I wish the Cubs would win a World Series in my lifetime as well... :rolleyes:

Well, you got a helluva lot better chance of getting uniform mechanic usage across the country than the Cubs have of winning a World Series.

It's been a while, but here goes:

Shut up. :p

There is a PowerPoint Presentation that has in the past (I have not looked over in detail of the current one) that gives many of the procedures on the IHSA Education section. Also if guys are not going to clinics every year or going to meetings on a regular basis, then shame on them if they are out of the loop. It is not like all of these things I am talking about are just subjected to clinics or the Chicago area. If the clinicians in your area have been paying attention, I am sure they know of many of these procedures. I have heard many of these differences mentioned at local association meetings. I guess it would be possible that some of the leaders in your area have dropped the ball on these things. This is why we have clinics and many of the procedures are discussed there.

Well one of the reasons the games are called differently has a lot to do with what kind of games are in an area. There are many more Class AA games in this area and I would think there are more college officials in the area. When you do see who works the Class AA State Finals, most of the officials do happen to come from this part of the state. I have worked a Class A Regional as well, and most of the officials that were working it with me may not have even worked a game or two at the Class A level. I think there were only 2 or 3 regionals directly in this area. I do not think you will ever completely overcome those differences.

As I stated before the NF takes the position that states can do whatever mechanics they choose to. These are mechanics, not rules issues. Also the NF does not include all areas of the game. There are many things the Official's Manual never clearly covers. So I have no problem with the IHSA using things that work. This is why they got rid of bouncing the ball on the end line.

Peace

Jeff - I'm not really quibbling with the fact that the Fed. allows states to make changes. I was just hoping for that little Utopian world where all basketball officials get to have the same mechanics while calling the same rules, no matter where they are.

I guess where I have the issue is regarding your comment about Harry making the change on the mechanic of not bouncing the ball on the endline in the backcourt about 4 years ago: how did he communicate this change with officials in the rest of the state? I have been to a clinic every year for the past 3 years, even though the requirement is once every 3 years. And the only time I heard that specific mechanic mentioned was during a joint association meeting (not a clinic) when John Dacey came down and spoke. He mentioned this mechanic, and I remember looking around at other people I was sitting with, and they all had the same look of "that's not right; that's not how the book tells us to do it". The rest of us hadn't gotten word of the change. You also mentioned the time when the Fed. couldn't decide whether to do the long switch or not, and you were doing a completely different mechanic for that 2 or 3 year stretch. Well I can tell you for sure the rest of us were being told in the pre-season meetings, administered by the IHSA, to do the long switch or not based on the Fed. mechanic, not what you were doing.

I'm not necessarily saying the changes are good or bad, I'm just pointing out that someone decided they can do something better than the Fed., and that's how they're going to teach it. But the process is not clear on how this change gets to the officials in the rest of the state. If it's good enough for them, isn't it good enough for the rest of us? If Harry has that much influnce with Kurt, then shouldn't there be some sort of easy way to access or receive these changes? Maybe sending out a sheet or pamphlet with the rule books, so everyone knows how we're going to do it in Illinois. Otherwise, we end up doing things a little different than you, so when you and I finally get together to do a game, we have to have a slightly longer pre-game to iron out these differences. Would it be right for someone from, say, southern IL, to decide they don't like a particular mechanic or philosophy and start teaching their officials a different way than the IHSA or Fed.? In fact, IAABO is a big association in St. Louis, so I'm sure some of their philosophies carry over to officials in the S.W. part of the state. Then when East St. Louis Lincoln meets Simeon in the AA finals, there's going to be some confusion.

Again, no easy answers, just mostly observations and wishes.

I know John too. I have worked for him when he assigned a league up here for a few years. John is a good guy and often talks about mechanics in his rules meetings.

All I an say is someone was not getting the word out in your area. There really is no other explaination. Clinicians are given things to talk about at clinics and meetings and it is their responsiblity to talk about changes or special mechanics.

1. Clinicians
   
2. PowerPoint Presentations
   
3. Clinics
   
4. Association Meetings
   
5. IHSA Convention and Clincs at concention (run by the head clinicians in each sport)
   
6. Rules Meetings

I think Clinicians are the main piece in this equation because members should see these people all the time and hear of mechanics and changes from these people left and right. I belong to more than one association and we have 3 or more clinicians/assignors in our groups and they beat in our heads the mechanics. Even when someone is doing a presentation, clinicians will point out the change or difference when necessary. It sounds to me we have been getting the word out and the people around you have not. This really seems true if John is telling you something you have never heard before or do not know where it came from.

Also this is not about an area over another. There are similar situations up here and officials that do not attend meetings or attend clinics never hear of the changes until the season starts. This is always why officials have to take some responsibility for keeping up with mechanics and rules interpretations. I have seen things posted directly on our personal web pages and officials were clueless. There is only so much the IHSA does. I know I attend IHSA clinics every single year and many times the mechanics are talked about right there.

Peace